Speaker 1: 0:01

As a researcher, I came from a background of. It's not in the book, right, it's peer-reviewed papers. It's go out and find the authors who are working in the space and trying to understand what they haven't published yet. It's cutting-edge research. Go to the conference, talk to people, attend the lectures and then bring those ideas back in the lab and start trying stuff. Now I've got this whole bookshelf behind me of leadership and management books, because I didn't know what I was doing.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. You know people can surprise you. Your leader may see something in you that you are unable to see for yourself. Maybe it's about giving constructive feedback, or maybe it's the career track you never actually considered.

Speaker 2: 0:58

My guest today had a decision to make and not much time to make it. His boss offered an opportunity to develop an entirely new expertise. He was hearing an option that diverged from technical plans and aspirations that he'd always had the fork in the road lay ahead, and he had to choose a direction. The moment reshaped his perspective and his path of success. The moment reshaped his perspective and his path of success. My guest today is Scott Hanton. Scott is a seasoned problem solver with 30 years of experience in industrial analytical chemistry and a proven track record of leadership and business success. He has combined scientific expertise with people, leadership and organizational management to drive high achievement through employee engagement and effective team development. Scott is a hands-on servant leader and skilled communicator. He's passionate about empowering individuals and teams to exceed their goals through positive leadership. Hi, scott, it's wonderful to have you join me today and I'm excited to hear about one of the inflection points in your life.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Thank you, becky. I'm happy to be here and thank you for that introduction. It sounded great.

Speaker 2: 2:11

Well, it's impressive. That's why it's fun to be able to talk about, right? So I know that we're going to be talking about one of these inflection stories in your life today, and I honestly do appreciate that not all stories start in the middle, but that's where I'm going to start today. So, as you think about this inflection point that you will discuss with me today, what can you share with me about the key choices that you faced at that particular time in your career?

Speaker 1: 2:39

So, as I was sitting in the chair trying to make that decision, some of the choices that I was facing in that moment were am I ready to go from a high degree of competence to a high degree of incompetence? By crossing that line, was I willing to change my dream, my ambition of where I wanted my career to go, of where I wanted my career to go? But that was balanced by a real need that I have for things to go right, for things to be done properly. One of my core values is excellence, and this was an opportunity to have more influence, have a seat at the table for when key decisions were being made for the organization.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Yeah. So when you're thinking about being in that moment and especially that idea from competence to incompetence, as you described that, what would be the decision that you would make if you had stayed within competence? What would that have looked like?

Speaker 1: 3:43

So at that point I was a pretty successful researcher. I was leading projects, I was making a difference, I was publishing papers, I was building an external reputation for my ability to do innovative science. The change was going to be to set that aside and start on the technical management ladder, where I had no training, no experience, but had a desire to help people and the desire to help our organization make the right kinds of decisions, moving forward.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Okay, so big decision right Step away from all of that analytical chemistry and all of that information that you had studied for so long and then worked with for so long. And hey, let's hang out with people instead of being in the lab.

Speaker 1: 4:37

The choice looked like math, numbers, data control, going to people, communication, herding cats right. It was that sort of transition.

Speaker 2: 4:50

Yeah, yeah, it's a wonder that you had to sit there and contemplate that at all. It must have felt perfectly obvious at the time.

Speaker 1: 4:57

It did feel obvious at the time, but that's part of the story. So when we get to the beginning we'll talk about that part story.

Speaker 2: 5:06

So when we get to the beginning, we'll talk about that part. Yeah, so let's go back to the beginning, right? So what was happening for you from a technical perspective that even created this opportunity to make this choice?

Speaker 1: 5:16

So it didn't quite happen like that. It wasn't a choice that I pursued, it wasn't a choice that I initiated. It was a choice that was put in front of me and I was given about three heartbeats to try to make a decision. And so all of the things that I was talking about about the trade-off or the decision had to be done in the moment because I was not prepared for the conversation. It was a surprise conversation to me.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Okay. So when you think about the technical career that you had at that point in time, how are you feeling about your role and how you fit into the organization within that role?

Speaker 1: 6:00

So I had started slowly in my career. Of all of my peer group, I was the last one to get promoted, so it felt like I was playing catch up. But at this point that we're heading to this transition, I felt like I had finally learned how to do this kind of work effectively. I had caught up to my peers. I had gotten some responsibility for bigger and more important projects. I'd had some success on publishing peer-reviewed journal articles, posters and orals at key conferences. I felt like, if you think of a metaphor of a flower blossom opening, that blossom was just opening. It was just getting to the point of creating some beauty when this decision came and for me it was a lot of work and sweat and effort to get those petals to open. And then I was being asked to make a different decision.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yeah, that image of that flower really stands out in my mind. I mean it's like full of color and full of energy when I think about that. How much had you ever even thought about moving into a management track even later in your career?

Speaker 1: 7:16

The thought never really crossed my mind. I was committed to this research opportunity and the company that I worked for had two different advancement tracks. It was a technical track and a management track, and I had my eyes set on a particular goal on the technical track and I wasn't shy about it. I talked to my supervisor about it. I talked to my peers. I was getting some mentoring from some more senior researchers and they were helping me build a resume that would give me the credentials that I needed to achieve those goals of a high level on that research track. And I was starting to have the success in the lab to justify advancement on that track.

Speaker 1: 7:59

And that success was a combination of doing interesting science. But I'm in the business world right, so it's connecting the results of the interesting science with things that the company could make money from, and I was figuring that out. I had come out of school with a PhD and I was relatively secure in my ability to do creative research. But it took me some time to learn how the industry worked and where the value of that research was, and to train myself to follow the research threads that had more lucrative outcomes for the company rather than just chasing my curiosity.

Speaker 1: 8:42

And it was that combination of matching the curious research with the things that mattered, and that's the point where I was just getting to. That was the flower that was just opening.

Speaker 2: 8:53

And what's really powerful about that is that you had moved forward to really understand so much of the organizational dynamics at that point in time, and my guess is that during your PhD you weren't really learning much about organizational dynamics and how you had to do science for the purpose of profit kind of exercises. And it makes a lot of sense, right, that it takes you a little bit of time to be able to say, oh, wait, a second, I don't get to do it just because it's interesting. I need to be able to do this for a business purpose. And yet this day comes. Talk me through that day a little bit. How did you enter into that discussion with them?

Speaker 1: 9:40

So my boss. I need to say that I liked a lot and he was treating me well. He was helping me, he was getting me the right kinds of connections within the organization. So I was meeting the right people, working with the right people to build my career on the technical ladder, where I wanted to go asked me to meet him in his office, and so it was the usual knock on the door Hi, how are you, how's the weather Right? All the small talk. Get through the small talk. And then Bob says Scott, I've decided to take another role within the company and as I move out of this management role, I really want you to take this role on. And in that moment I'm thinking, bob, we've had this conversation. All right, you know what my goal is. You've helped me build up my skills to reach that goal and I watch what you do and I don't want to do what you do. It makes perfect sense to me that you are moving out of this role. This role is crazy.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Why would anyone want that job?

Speaker 1: 10:49

crazy. Why would anyone want that job? And Bob's a smart guy. And he said, scott, I realize you might feel this way, but I am moving and there needs to be a replacement manager. And if you say no to this opportunity and at this point he's sliding a folded piece of paper across the desk to me he said this person's going to say yes and you will report to her. And so, with great trepidation, I reached down for the piece of paper to open it to see who he's thinking of next.

Speaker 1: 11:14

And he must have just watched my face fall. It was like there is no way. There is no way. I'm reporting to her. It's not going to work, we don't agree on anything and she's more my competitor than my colleague. And so I fold the paper back, closed and I slide it back across the desk to Bob and say Bob, can we start this conversation over again? Bob says sure, get out of here. So he tells me to leave his office. I close the door. I have to knock on the door. He gives me the same small talk about the weather and gives me the whole same speech about he's moving on and he really liked me to take over for him. And what do I think, and my response is Bob. Thank you very much for thinking of me.

Speaker 1: 12:01

I accept and in the back of my mind is Scott, what are you doing? This is crazy. But at that moment I was choosing between a future that I understood, a research future that I enjoyed and I was starting to be good at. But I could see this giant obstacle, which was the name on the piece of paper, and I really didn't want to go through a period of conflict with this other human that I knew was coming because we disagreed on everything. And if we were going to disagree on everything, I would rather be the supervisor than the supervisee.

Speaker 1: 12:46

And if I was going to be engaging in conflict with this person and perhaps some other people, I wanted to have Bob's support. I wanted to have line management support, because Bob wouldn't be having that conversation with me without his boss's support. And I was worried, based on my understanding of this other person, of how she would engage in the decisions that needed to be made. I simply didn't have faith in her ability to make those decisions and in that moment I decided it was better for me, better for the team that I was working with, to be in the chair at the table than to say, nah, you can have it.

Speaker 2: 13:31

Right, right. One felt like a bigger risk than the other. It sounds like.

Speaker 1: 13:36

Absolutely. I felt in some ways that the research future, that path that I was on, ended in that moment. It's not that I couldn't stay in the lab and do research. It's that I could foresee difficulties and conflict and waste of time and waste of effort that wouldn't lead to the research outcomes that I had been seeking, or I could change, help other people do that research, get to where my vision was on the research, even though I wasn't doing it. I could help other people meet those goals and I could prevent a whole bunch of conflict and waste of effort.

Speaker 2: 14:17

Absolutely. And I wonder a little bit about that decision, because as you tell that story, it feels as though it was less about, yes, I choose to be a leader in this capacity and in this way, and more of if it's between the two of us, then I choose me, and so it feels a little bit like kind of a forced love, kind of circumstance. I mean, how true would you say that that is?

Speaker 1: 14:48

I never sought that role and the only reason I took it was because I was confident I could do a better job than the other person who was under consideration.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Okay, okay. Did you ever find out if that was a true risk or not? Like he would have actually followed up his conversation with you to go to her.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Short answer, no Longer answer. She was angling for the job. She was as much as I was saying I'm heading for this research position on the technical ladder. She would talk at lunch in the lab, in the hallways of when I'm your boss. So she was openly competing for the job. So it resonated with me that she had some background that would justify her in the chair. But I didn't have confidence in her ability to deliver.

Speaker 2: 15:40

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:54

One gift that came out of this conversation was that Bob engineered her being transferred to? Okay, yeah, and it's not that she was gone. She was just in a different organization reporting to somebody else. We still had to interact, but it wasn't sort of the day-to-day conflict with a direct report who you don't agree with. That I was worried about.

Speaker 2: 16:16

Right, so that conflict didn't actually surface. In the same way, I'm sure that interactions weren't necessarily always you know sunshine and rainbows, but certainly you know at least, like you say, it's not that direct reporting relationship with that. And you talked about and I'm paraphrasing here a little bit that she had cultivated some of these skills and capabilities in order to be in that role. Skills and capabilities in order to be in that role.

Speaker 1: 16:48

What were the characteristics that Bob saw in you that made him talk to you first? So for about a year prior to this, I'd been a team supervisor, so I had four or five direct reports and that team had been a mess, and so one interesting thing about that team is that the previous supervisor of the team took himself out. It's like I'm not good at this, I don't want to be supervisor anymore, and so when I became the supervisor, I had somebody who was significantly older than I am many levels higher than me in the company and who had just said no, I'm out of the supervisor chair. But he really went out of his way to help me be a better supervisor. He taught me a lot, which I greatly appreciate. I also really respected his ability to say I'm bad at this and it's bad for me to be bad at it, but it's bad for our whole team that I'm bad at it, and so he helped me be the supervisor.

Speaker 1: 17:49

What Bob could see is a team went from chaos and indecision to a team that would became highly functional, and so I think the things that Bob saw in me were a directness and communication that I'm pretty good at, the ability to be pretty organized about what I'm trying to accomplish and an openness to listen to everybody on the team. I think Bob was really worried that the previous supervisor and I were going to butt heads because we're both strong personalities, but the opposite occurred. We became really good friends. Dave was his name, the previous supervisor, and there were days where Dave would come into my office, close the door and say you know that staff meeting we just had that didn't go well. And here's what I saw and I was able to accept that feedback. Thank Dave for it, do it differently the next time. And I'm sure that Dave was talking to Bob about my development as a leader and the fact that I could accept feedback, could make changes, could own up to my mistakes, could settle this team were all things that Bob saw.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Okay, yeah, that's fantastic actually that you were able to demonstrate that in a way that it was up and down, was familiar with that strategy and with that insight, one of the options that you didn't talk about, and especially, I guess, if you had all of the three seconds to be able to make the decision. But what were your thoughts about whether you stay with that company or not?

Speaker 1: 19:26

thoughts about whether you stay with that company or not. So I had gone down that path previously, a couple of years before I said I was the last in my cohort to get promoted. And at that time I had a super toxic boss. So advice to your listeners when you are having dreams about how to hide the body, it's time to make a change.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Yes, because those dreams might come into reality and the orange suit doesn't generally feel that great yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:49

So I had explored external options. I'd prepared a resume. I'd even gone out and done interviews and what I found was that the opportunities I had within the company that I had if I could just jettison the toxic boss that there were really good opportunities there. I, within the company that I had if I could just jettison the toxic boss that there were really good opportunities there. I liked the company, I liked where we lived. My wife had good opportunities at that time.

Speaker 1: 20:12

It was just one problem, which was the toxic supervisor, and so, with the help of a colleague and Paula was great, she gets all the credit for getting us out of from under the toxic supervisor, but she engineered the right conversations with senior management to demonstrate the truth of what was happening inside our team Okay, supervisor. And so things were looking pretty good. I was happy with where the company was going. I was really happy with my close colleagues. The work in the mass spec group that I was working in was really blossoming and doing great. So it was time to change careers, but it wasn't time to change companies.

Speaker 2: 20:57

Absolutely. And that's such a powerful thing too, that recognition of I'm actually with a good organization, there's good potential and good possibility for me here. And so often we're afraid to take the interview because we think, oh, you know, that means I'm leaving. Well, no, it actually could be the impetus for staying. It's an information gathering process. It's not necessarily I'll take the first train. It's an information gathering process. It's not necessarily I'll take the first train. Thank you very much. Right, and I think that's powerful. So thank you for sharing that. So, as we think about that quick decision and shifting into that management role, you know it can be a bit of a struggle going from an individual contributor, even a team supervisor, into managing the team. And, like you said, you liked Bob, so I'm guessing that others on the team may have liked Bob as well. So you're also stepping in to replace or fill the shoes of someone who's been respected and cared for. How was that adjustment for you?

Speaker 1: 22:02

So there's good news and bad news there, right. The good news was that Bob had given me a pretty stable team. He'd done a good job as a technical manager and he had sorted out a number of different problems, so that was great. On the minus side, there were people who were more senior than me, who had a hard time reporting to somebody who was younger than them, with less experience than them, and so there were some members of the team who were like I don't really need to talk to you. Yeah, you're the boss, but you haven't earned my respect.

Speaker 1: 22:35

So there was some of that going on. There was also another group of senior people who and this time I won't use any names, senior people who were never my friend, never had time a day for me, you know, would not return my calls, wouldn't help me, who were suddenly in my office every other day trying to figure out how they could help, and I didn't have any time for them. Surprise, surprise, right. So I spent my effort trying to win the respect of the entire team, and you do that through a whole variety of things, but you know, being humble and honest and authentic and curious. You know all the sorts of parts of my personality.

Speaker 2: 23:16

All of those things helped me win the respect of the people that I wanted the respect of the respect of the people that I wanted the respect of what were some of the things that you found yourself doing in order to show that you had the characteristics that they could trust?

Speaker 1: 23:32

I think for me there was two key things. One is learning. There was just so much about management that I didn't know, and it was hard to learn. Once Bob moved off to his other position the other technical managers, who we all reported to a director they spent the first two years of my tenure as a technical manager taking advantage of my ignorance. So we'd go into a capital budget planning and they all knew how to do that and I didn't know how to do it. And so for the first two years my team got nothing out of the capital budget planning because I didn't know how to compete for that money.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Or we go into performance review and at that time it was a graded ranking system and I had no idea how to do it. And so for the first two years my team ended up on the bottom of the graded ranking because it was not worth any of their time to teach me. They were simply taking advantage of my ignorance. So I had to be open with my team about what I knew, what I struggled with, what some of these outcomes were, and ask for help. And so another thing to your listeners asking for help is super powerful, because it shows people that you're not faking it. It shows people that you're not just an idiot Right. It shows people that you are willing and taking the effort in order to make things better. But then I also had to reach outside of my director's umbrella to find other managers who would teach me, because my peers didn't want to teach me. It was a benefit to them that I didn't know, so they could take advantage.

Speaker 2: 25:10

Yeah, that was a big disincentive for them in order to have you learn any of those pieces, because they would lose in their mind and the downside for them is they forced me to learn In their mind.

Speaker 1: 25:19

Well, and the downside for them is they forced me to learn and as I learned I got good at this and over the years in that situation I got better at it than they did. And sort of, in the long run, if they'd have cultivated me as a colleague and helped me, I would have helped them, but they cultivated me as an enemy and an antagonist.

Speaker 2: 25:43

So that's the role I played and I simply beat them at their own game in terms of being in that management role, essentially competing with the other managers beneath that director and trying to maintain that, that talented team that you had. What were some of the things that you discovered about yourself that really needed to shift and change in order to be the best leader that you could be?

Speaker 1: 26:12

I got a piece of advice from at the time. She was a peer. Later she became a boss and she said Scott, do you want to be effective or right? And the key word in that sentence is or. So as a PhD researcher who is responsible for innovation, my job was to be right, and I had to transition from being right to being effective. So there were times in conversations with my team or conversations with my peers where I could make a statement that would show them that what they said was 90% correct or 80% correct, and what I learned was that wasn't important. If we were going in the right direction and we were making the right decisions, then those subtle differences weren't as important as us being effective and us making the right decisions. And I had to transition my role from being at the tip of the spear about being right from a scientific and research perspective to pushing other people forward and enabling the entire team to be successful.

Speaker 2: 27:24

Yeah, that had to be quite the feedback to receive, because there's a bit of an implication in there that you're even conceding to now that people might have seen you trying to push that idea of I'm right, I know I'm right, just do what I say, kind of perspective.

Speaker 1: 27:41

But there was this essence within the company, especially in the research ranks, where our job is to be right that's the point of the exercise is to be right, and if we are right then people will see that we are right and then we'll be effective. And so that's sort of how I grew up within the company, and I needed Sherry to sort of whisper in my ear and say there's another way to do this that might be better.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Right, right, and maybe even easier, and I wonder, as you have now had much more experience in terms of the management and leadership ranks, what are two of the things that you think have really changed about who you are as a person and as a leader in that time?

Speaker 1: 28:32

I think I am far better now, through my years as a leader, at listening. I've always been curious. I've always been motivated to learn, but I'm a much better active listener now, trying to really understand what that other person is trying to say and trying to glean. Where are the jewels of what they're trying to share with me that I can take in and assimilate and use in some effective way? Where before? Yeah, I worked in teams, but I had my own action items. I had my own responsibilities and listening was something that we had to do, but it had to become a core skill as a leader and a manager.

Speaker 1: 29:18

I think the other thing that really changed was what I was learning. So, as a researcher, I came from a background of. It's not in the book, right, it's peer-reviewed papers. It's go out and find the authors who are working in the space and trying to understand what they haven't published yet. It's cutting edge research. Go to the conference, talk to people, attend the lectures and then bring those ideas back in the lab and start trying stuff. Now I've got this whole bookshelf behind me of leadership and management books, because I didn't know what I was doing and I had to go figure out where this knowledge was, and read and learn in a completely different space.

Speaker 2: 30:08

Yeah, it's so interesting to me how many people I talk to, because I do work with so many who have technical backgrounds and what I hear is they didn't teach this in my program. What I hear is they didn't teach this in my program and the fact is, as I've sat with that and I've thought about that over time I mean I was in business school and I don't really remember them teaching me how to manage. It was all much more high level leadership, philosophical research, kinds of things Right, kinds of things right and there's so much that we have to learn while we're on the ground and making those mistakes and having people guide us and give us the information that we don't have so we don't find ourselves on the bottom. With that, I guess I'm kind of curious, as you think about yourself as a leader now. What is it that you are focused on that you want to continue to learn.

Speaker 1: 31:08

So one of my favorite quotes comes from Peter Drucker, the management guru, and he says management is doing things right, leadership is doing the right things, and I'm interested in both of those. So, from a management perspective, can we get the operations in the process to deliver the desired outcomes? Can we do in the science role? Is our quality program working properly? Is our safety program working properly? Are we executing standardized testing in a standardized way? Executing standardized testing in a standardized way? Are we delivering the output that our customer stakeholder colleague needs from us?

Speaker 1: 31:50

But there's also the leadership side of are we doing the right things? And for me there's two avenues there. They're both heavily people-oriented, but a lot of doing the right things is making the right decisions about people. So, are we hiring the right people? Are we keeping the right people? Are we developing, promoting, retaining the right people? But also, do we have the right strategy? And so I think a lot about how do we get the right people in the right place to do the right thing, to deliver the strategy. So I'm thinking from the grassroots of how do I help people be successful, and then from the organizational perspective of where are we trying to go, what is success and when I can put those two things and overlap them, then that feels really good, makes me happy.

Speaker 2: 32:46

Absolutely no. I can appreciate that. One other question that I guess I have is as you look back on that day now, how do you feel about the choice you made?

Speaker 1: 32:57

I'm happy with the choice that I made. So, for me, bob saw something in me that I never saw in myself, and I'm a big believer in helping people recognize their strengths and act on their strengths, and as a manager, I do that all the time. Right, I'm trying to surface somebody's strengths and help them be successful and, in hindsight, that's what Bob did. He surfaced a strength that I wasn't even aware of that changed the whole course of my career.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Yeah, I have a bunch of peer-reviewed papers and people who care about the details of polymer mass spectrometry can find the papers that I've written. And it's a small crowd, a good, friendly crowd, but a small crowd. But I never would have learned, I wouldn't have read all these books, I wouldn't have learned all of this about people leadership and people management. And the career that I have now is the editorial director at LabX Media Group. I never would have come here, I never would have had this opportunity if I hadn't said yes then. And I love what I'm doing now, and it's a much bigger way to impact the scientific enterprise by teaching lab managers how to be more successful, which is, in essence, is what I do now.

Speaker 2: 34:13

Yeah, absolutely no. That's fantastic, and I really appreciate your story here today, and certainly you know there are pieces of it that you and I have talked about before, and yet I continue to learn even more from you as we talked here today. So thanks a lot, scott, for coming in. I wonder if there's anything else that I didn't ask you that you would want to be able to share with the listeners today.

Speaker 1: 34:38

So one thing you didn't ask me was what sort of foundation was I building this transition to management to? And so it wasn't zero. So, if I look back on my personal history, I had opportunities to learn and execute leadership throughout my life. So, for example, I was a senior patrol leader in a Boy Scout troop right and there's leadership needs there officer in our church youth group, which meant that I had to make decisions to help that leadership group proceed. I was the captain of a track team in high school. Other students relied on me to help them navigate being an athlete, being a student, the ups and the downs of the athletic pursuits. I organized, co-organized with a friend, a soccer team in college that went out and competed and recruited players that had never played before, and so there were these building blocks that gave me the opportunity to be successful in this role. And I hadn't strung those pearls together, but looking backwards, I can see them. Backwards, I can see them, and so if you're out there listening to this podcast, my advice to you, if you're facing a transition, is look backwards too and see if there's some pearls that can be strung together that are going to give you some confidence when you take that step, across that chasm, through this transition.

Speaker 1: 36:08

One other thing I want to add is that my dad was a longtime vice president in a bank and he didn't do science and I didn't do banking right, and we had a great relationship, but we struggled to talk to one another about what we did. When I did my PhD, he said I am going to read your whole thesis. And I said okay, let me know if you need a hand. And he came back about a month later and said I got to page two and I can't go any farther. And I said, okay, thanks for trying. But once I got promoted to this manager role, I had a whole new set of questions for him and in our family my mom was the one who talked. Right, If I was on the phone with them, what I heard from my dad was hey, Scott, good to have you call, Let me find your mom.

Speaker 1: 37:01

And then at the end of the call. It was great to hear from you, looking forward to talking to you next time, and there was nothing in between those things.

Speaker 1: 37:08

It was my mom and I talking, but now I could go to dinner with just my dad and I could ask him management and leadership questions, and it was a great bonding exercise for us and it helped me understand some of the things that I had just heard at the dinner table as a kid but I had no context for, and now I finally had some context to hang those things on, and so part of this transition also brought me closer to my dad, which was wonderful.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I wonder, as Bob was talking to you or thinking about talking to you, how many of those foundational pieces that, while he didn't necessarily know all of those foundations, but he might have seen some of the impacts on how you interacted with people, even if you weren't in this role at that point in time, and I really love that you were able to bond with your dad in a different way and to be able to have that moment, because those relationships can be so powerful for us. So, once again, I just want to thank you so very much for coming on the podcast today and sharing your story and your learnings and your experience. So appreciate you very much, scott.

Speaker 1: 38:18

Thank you, becky. It was a pleasure to be here. You made this easy and I'll recommend to others, if they have the opportunity, to come join you.

Speaker 2: 38:26

I want to thank Scott for sharing the story of his inflection point. What were the strengths that resonated with you as he shared his experience? A key aspect in each of my interviews is that moment of change, the inflection point. What really stood out to me in Scott's story wasn't just the change, but the moments, the moments he had to make a decision. But the moments, the moments he had to make a decision. For the introverted skeptics among you, that must feel like a horrifying thing to have to do. Most of you tell me you want time to process, a chance to sit with the decision and walk through what it means for you. Yes, scott didn't get that. He had no warning, a brief glimpse at consequences of each option and boom must choose A complete new career trajectory at the drop of a hat. Scott's experience is a great reminder that sometimes you don't get to have all the information. You use what you have available and take the leap Personally, I'm a leap and then look type of person in many ways. Personally, I'm a leap and then look type of person in many ways. The reason I can do that is because I trust that if it doesn't go my way, I will change course In my IPEC coach training program.

Speaker 2: 39:39

A foundation principle they teach is that there are no mistakes. I'm going to be honest with you. Many of us struggled with that. Of course there are mistakes. I've actually come to embrace that foundation after some stress. So if you aren't there, I get it.

Speaker 2: 39:57

My interpretation of it is this you make a decision based upon the information you have when you choose. You never have 100% information. Sometimes you aren't even 100% certain that what you have is truly accurate. There's always room for interpretation gaps in knowledge or mental or emotional noise distracting you. Each decision is made based on what you knew and believed at the time. Later, when you try to be a Monday morning quarterback, you have more information, more experience and more perspective. You're different, so it's reasonable that you may choose differently. It wasn't a mistake. You just didn't have the knowledge, experience and perspective you have at the point when you think it was a mistake.

Speaker 2: 40:43

That raises the other point that stood out to me as Scott shared his experience. He recognized and valued his technical expertise and experience by his own sharing. He didn't feel like he knew how to be a manager of what needed to be done, like budgets, or a leader of who he had on his team. Admitting that to himself was probably I don't know a little humbling. He's an exceptionally intelligent person who was used to knowing, and now he didn't have the expertise he needed. He did, though, know how to learn. He shifted that scholarly mind toward learning about management and leadership. He had some previous experience in different contexts that could get him started. He also also tapped into mentors, educators and other resources to master what he didn't yet understand. Scott also learned from the leadership he had experienced from others.

Speaker 2: 41:39

The things we love or love to hate about our leaders are often very powerful teachers. My favorite part of the story is the connection Scott was able to make with his father. My favorite part of the story is the connection Scott was able to make with his father. The relationship changed because they had a point of connection. Sometimes those are complicated to find, whether it's with family, colleagues or others.

Speaker 2: 42:08

As humans, we are social creatures seeking connections with fellow human beings. Scott's story shows us that even when we have a plan, there may be big changes that happen. We may have time to deliberate and we may not. It's never a mistake to make a conscious choice. When you use the information that is available to you. You determine the next step and then the next. Maybe you're interested in connecting with Scott and you can find his LinkedIn address in the show notes. Let him know you heard his story on our podcast. I know he's a powerful mentor, teacher and leader and could offer really great insights for you. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.