Speaker 1: 0:01

I needed to take a pause because I was so hurt and I was so angry that the best way for me to handle it was to take that pause. Figure out how I wanted to assess the situation and how I wanted to show up and do it in a way that was not going to how you lead.

Speaker 2: 0:25

In my coaching, I'm always talking about leading as you. Naturally, I believe in keeping an editor intact when that internal editor is broken. Maybe not ideal, it turns out that not every thought needs to be shared. My guest today had a powerful personal experience as he came out to his parents. It had taken him a long time to get to that point. He will tell the story much better than I ever could, especially how it shaped who he has become today.

Speaker 2: 1:18

I shared in an earlier episode that a friend of mine had come out to me shortly after I graduated from university. That's a meaningful story in my life. Maybe you, like me, didn't have to come out to anyone about your sexual orientation. Maybe you have never had someone come out to you personally. If that's true, maybe you can consider how you could choose to respond. If you were ever on either side of the conversation, what would you be thinking? What would you be feeling? My guest has the courage to live true to himself. In many ways I admire him as a person, as a friend and as a coach. This is one meaningful aspect of his personal and professional story, and there are so many others that I've witnessed and more to learn about him. Today we'll start with this one personal and professional story, and there are so many others that I've witnessed, and more to learn about him Today, we'll start with this one.

Speaker 2: 2:11

Today's guest is John Nerrell, who is an author, podcaster and career coach. John knows what it's like to feel stuck and undervalued in a career, despite all the right things delivering quality work, building strong relationships and being a dedicated employee. But after facing setbacks and shifting his focus to communicating his value, his career took off. Now John coaches mid-career professionals on navigating career transitions with confidence and clarity. He helps them craft their unique career stories to land the opportunities they deserve. Hi, john, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to hear about one of the inflection points in your life that influenced your career and leadership style. It's great to see you today.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Becky, I am so honored to spend some time with you on the mic today. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 2:59

Yeah, it's always fun when we have conversations, so I'm really looking forward to this today, one of the things that our listeners might be going huh, what's that? Can you describe for me a little bit about what is a mid-career professional?

Speaker 1: 3:13

Kind of your target for coaching, right? So by definition, according to the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics we'll get all the jargon out of the way a mid-career professional is someone who is 10 years past their graduation, be it either high school or college, and that would put them essentially at either 28 to 32 at the low end, and we're seeing mid-career being defined very easily into their mid-50s.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Okay, so pretty wide range. Yeah, I've found out that I'm not middle-aged some time ago. I'm apparently pushing up on the upper limit there, so it's nice to know that when you're in your early 50s, you're still mid-something right.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Exactly, and as we see people working longer and later in their lives or they're reshaping parts of their career, that whole career journey tends to stretch out a little bit. So it just makes that mid-career definition a little more broad.

Speaker 2: 4:05

Yeah, absolutely Well, and I'm excited to be able to talk about one of these meaningful inflection points in your life that has really influenced you as the professional and the coach that you are today. When you think about where it started, what does that look like to you?

Speaker 1: 4:26

started. What does that look like to you? What it looks like for me is a very personal moment in my life, and the easiest way I can set this up and we'll do a little homage to the Golden Girls here oh good. So, in the words of Sophia Petrillo, picture it 1979. I'm 10 years old. My sister comes home and she announces to my very staunch Catholic family that she's pregnant. And I will offer as an aside here nobody handled this well. I mean, how could they right handled this well? I mean, how could they Right? And when we turn the story and rightfully so back to me, amidst the yelling, the screaming, the door slamming and everything else, my mom calls me downstairs and she sits me on her lap. Now, keep in mind, I'm 10. And she says to me what your sister did was very bad, and if you ever go to bed with a woman before you're married, I hope you see my face instead of hers. Now, let's just let that sink in a little bit, right.

Speaker 2: 5:37

You're like Mom, I'm 10.

Speaker 1: 5:38

I'm 10, right, you know so, and I'm thinking, okay, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that I didn't have questions or was wondering. You know you're still trying to figure all this out, but it took 16 years after that until I finally told a close friend of mine that I was gay, and it was another two years after that. So I'm 28. And I'm coming out to my parents and now we're talking I think it was, it was 1998. And I'm telling them, and you could see the wheels turning, and my parents were older, my folks had me in their early forties, and so here they are, in their early 70s, essentially, and I could see the wheels turning and my mother looks at me, becky, and she goes do you remember when, uh-huh, and I told you oh yeah, did that make you? Absolutely it did.

Speaker 2: 6:42

Yes, mom, it's your fault. It is your fault Now.

Speaker 1: 6:46

I diffuse stuff with humor, okay. So my father looks at me and he's like John and I'm like she threw that over the plate. How do I not knock that out of the park, right? But the reason why this is so important is because, becky, I went through a period of time where my family disowned me, and so I didn't want to lose them, and so when I started thinking about what it meant for me to show up for myself and for my parents, one of the things that I held very true with were these things. So one was I would never say anything in anger as difficult as that was. I would never say anything in anger, as difficult as that was. I would never say anything in anger to them. And the second thing was I would end every conversation with I love you and not expect them to reciprocate.

Speaker 2: 7:38

Yeah. So I'm curious, though, if we go even a little bit farther back in time and you were talking about, it took you 16 years. So I can appreciate that at 11 years old, you weren't sitting with your parents saying, hey, I'm gay, Right, so you get a bit of a buy for some of that time, though some know and some share. So, right Like it's, it's what it is. What I'm wondering is what were you thinking and feeling during those 16 to 18 years that kept you from revealing that part of yourself to your parents?

Speaker 1: 8:14

I was scared. I was scared that if I told them the truth, they would cut me off, that I didn't have a way to support or take care of myself. That being alone is scary enough, but if you don't have your family with you, the support system that you've had growing up from the very beginning, what then would my life look like? And so I kept thinking that, oh, it'll change, right, like God will flip the switch, whatever that might be right. And I kept going through all of that and thinking and thinking. And I dated. I dated women. Nothing ever happened, nothing ever like pursued into like a really strong or serious relationship in that regard. But it was fear that kept me from being truthfully honest with them, because I was afraid of the repercussion.

Speaker 2: 9:10

Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious what was it that finally prompted you to say, okay, enough is enough, I'm ready to talk to them now.

Speaker 1: 9:19

I was established in my job and in my career. I had been living out on my own. I felt like I was in a good spot. I was in a relationship with someone and I didn't want to hide. I felt like, you know, if I'm not going to come out at 28, what does that look like for me? Am I going to be somebody that's in their 40s or 50s or even 60s, and I've gone through my whole life with this huge secret that I couldn't get to be authentically honest with myself? And so there were a number of circumstances like that that thought, okay, if I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them now, because this was also taking a toll on my health.

Speaker 1: 10:02

I was worried, I was super anxious and I always say like I say this to my clients all the time when we worry, it's usually because we care, right. So for me this was about okay. So I care this much I need to tell you and I'm going to brace myself for whatever comes after.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Yeah, and when you talk about being in 40s and 50s and not sharing it, that's, that's a lot of weight to carry, because I would imagine I don't know, but I would imagine that it gets heavier and heavier to carry for every day or every year that goes by and you have to hold it in this really close community and the people you really love and care for in your family. You're not able to share that with them.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Well, it's that, but it's also if I'm keeping a secret or if I'm hiding something right, I've got to be really good at crossing my T's and dotting my I's. Somewhere along the way you mess up, you slip up, you let something out and then all of a sudden you're now having to defend or lie or make up another story, and when we talk about living our authentic lives and being true to ourselves, that's not the way we want to live. So I got to a point where I was like I don't think I can cross my T's and dot my I's anymore. This just needs to come out.

Speaker 2: 11:32

When you really think about that moment and really the time after, when you came out to your parents and that relationship was so rocky and even separate for a while. I know you said you set some of those limits in terms of how you would interact with them, how you would interface with them. I know you have a great relationship with your mom right now. When you imagine that time, what were some of the things that you did at that moment that you think really made the change so you could lock in and be with your parents?

Speaker 1: 12:08

you think really made the change so you could lock in and be with your parents. Well, first of all, I had a really great therapist that helped me through navigating all of this right.

Speaker 2: 12:13

Because this was always nice on my own right. So definitely yes.

Speaker 1: 12:16

But one of the things that we did was we set a ground rule for what questions we could ask, role for what questions we could ask. So my parents I mean God, love them, but they were very sheltered and not very nuanced on things. I kid you not. My mother literally thought someone recruited me and they got a toaster oven because of it. I'm not making that up. So in that regard it was like okay, so if she's going to ask me a question, I need to know that this is coming from a place of information and not about judgment or demeaning me. Ask you a question and I would say are you asking for information? She would say yes and I would say, okay, go ahead, ask the question.

Speaker 1: 13:11

It was those little things that helped us level, set the tone of where the conversation was going to be, and there were things that my mom would ask that had we not set those ground rules, it would have been very easy for me to get defensive, argumentative, dismissive, but because we had those ground rules, so that was one. The second thing was we all had an out and the out was if any of us felt overwhelmed, overstressed or didn't want to continue the conversation, we would just say, okay, I need to step out of the conversation and let's revisit it and we would propose a new date and time. And that was about respecting everybody's comfort level with what they could handle in the moment.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Well, what's really powerful about that, too, is it's not stop, we'll never touch this again. It's stop. Give me a week, give me a day, give me an hour, whatever that time frame might be. But I need to kind of settle my physiology here a little bit and really be in a place where I can continue to have this conversation. It strikes me, john, that these are skills that you probably took into the workplace. This whole idea of you know ground rules and what you can ask may not have been about your sexual orientation, but it may have been actually at different points, but really translates across the career that you had and that also, that whole idea of let's just take a pause here and we'll come back to this, but we don't need to talk about this right now. Talk to me about that connection. Where did that start to play out professionally, for?

Speaker 1: 14:53

me, Becky. So I taught middle school mathematics for 14 years and one of the things that you learn in your educational training is that if you screw up day one, your year is ruined. So especially when you're teaching 11 to 14 year olds. So it was about creating structure, right? So here's the roles. Here's how we play in this classroom. This is what you can expect from me. This is what I can expect from you. Can we agree to that? That's all well and good, but when I started leading teams and my career shifted and I moved into supervisory type roles or administrative type roles, what I learned from all of that was it really wasn't that different.

Speaker 1: 15:38

People want to know how to play, and when they know how to play and they know the rules they're playing by, they don't have to walk on eggshells. So when we talk in the workplace about how do we build trust and a wonderful sports psychologist named Dr Dean Hinnett says trust is repeated behavior over time we build trust with our teams. It's because they know what to expect from us, because we consistently show up in that way. So whenever I started working with a new team, here's what we can expect and I'm going to prove to you. This is how I'm going to show up every single day, and that would start opening up the conversation to say okay, what do you need from this relationship? Let's talk about what you need to be successful and let's see if we can reach agreements on that.

Speaker 2: 16:36

Yeah, because then it can start to even be a win-win relationship. They know what to expect from you and now looking for what can I expect back? It's the reciprocity that really comes into play on something like that. What about that whole take a pause thing? Right Like there had to be a point in time in your career where you needed to take a pause with someone and there's a story behind it. I'm curious how that has shown up in your career.

Speaker 1: 17:04

Well, I had to take a pause when I had a promotion taken away from me. So anybody who's listening, if you've ever been told you're being promoted or you're told you're going to be elevated in some way, shape or form, there's a lot of excitement behind that. There's new responsibility, new challenges, there's an increase in pay. There's all of these things that have impact that you're like oh my gosh, I'm going to get this, because I've worked so hard to get to this and we were coming right up on decision and I did something with a team that I was responsible for leading. They weren't directly reporting to me, but I was responsible for helping lead and train them, and I did this exercise with them, which was about having them create a mission statement as a group of managers here's your mission. And Because I thought this would be a really great thing for them to have this mission statement that we wrote, in alignment with the reorganization document, that they could have this thing in their office that they would always go back to and look at. And so I, rather than ask for forgiveness later, I just went ahead and started moving it up the chain my VP and went up to the SVP and apparently I pissed the SVP off. Oops, right, oops, okay, he had his decisions for it. His main decision was people don't make mission statements, organizations do. And, for whatever reason, he felt like I was getting out of line, and so the way to ding me for that was took my promotion away. We'll reevaluate it later.

Speaker 1: 18:49

And, in the scope of the conversations I had with the people who were in the room and who chose not to stand up for me, I needed to take a pause, because I was so hurt and I was so angry that the best way for me to handle it was to take that pause, figure out how I wanted to assess the situation and how I wanted to show up and do it in a way that was not going to damage the relationship. And I said three words to a supervisor of mine and I will never, ever forget the look on her face. And I looked at her straight in the eyes and I said I am not happy and what we learned in our coach training is we don't say anything after that. Right, silence, let that hang. And so I was just holding space and I was like go ahead, be uncomfortable, because I'm not really happy right now, right.

Speaker 1: 19:57

And what came out of that, becky, was a commitment that this didn't go well. I understand why you're unhappy, and from my end it was. You're never going to do this to somebody again, right? You're never going to let this happen here again, because this sucks. So that pause was really really helpful.

Speaker 2: 20:24

Powerful Absolutely, and the courage that it takes to walk in and say I'm not happy, and especially the courage to let that silence linger when it had to be pretty uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 20:36

Oh, it was extremely uncomfortable. You sit there and go. What the hell is going to happen next? Do they fire me now?

Speaker 2: 20:45

And so and part of it, too, I think about with this is you're coaching now, so you're in a very different kind of role. How does this experience affect what you bring to coaching conversations?

Speaker 1: 21:02

So for me, the whole reason why I landed and wanted to specifically help mid-career professionals is that I think it is the most dynamic time in our careers. We've got experience, we're in essentially the wealth-building years of our career, both in terms of not only our overall income potential but also our impact potential. We often see a lot of promotions happen at mid-career and if we play it well and we do it right, we set ourselves up for whatever that last chapter is before we retire. So, for me, I never want anybody to feel like they're stuck, they're undervalued, they're underutilized, they're misunderstood, and so what I bring into this coaching relationship aside from the training that we have, but also with my experiences is to just help them have the clarity they need to navigate this very dynamic and ever-moving landscape, which right now, admittedly, is not easy.

Speaker 2: 22:11

Exactly right. Exactly right. And one of the things that I think about as you say that too, is I imagine you at 28 and coming out to your parents wanting to feel seen, not wanting to feel stuck anymore, and being able to find that way to navigate forward. And now you're in this position where, for different reasons and for a different purpose, but you're helping other people move out of that feeling and into that freer sort of space. What does that do for you now, when you get to help other people move from a place that you recognize so much?

Speaker 1: 22:57

It always brings me back to the reason why I left my last position and opened my practice full time, because I remember having a conversation with my leadership and talking specifically with the vice president, and I said I'm leaving here with a lot of gratitude because I get to help more people outside this organization than I can inside of it, and so that's what drives me every single day, because it could be a different organization in terms of its size, its scope, it could be a completely different mission or vision, depending on who I'm working with, but at the end of the day, what I know is that a mid-career professional who truly cares about what they do they've got a ton more left they want to do and accomplish, and so I'm grateful for my journey, but at the same time, I'm even more grateful for what I get to do now because, admittedly, I'm having the best time I've ever had in my career.

Speaker 2: 24:04

As we've talked through this story that was such a pivotal moment in your life and formative for your career. What are some of the key things that you think that you really want to bring to your coaching in the most powerful way that you can?

Speaker 1: 24:21

It's okay to be scared. It doesn't mean you have to be paralyzed. It's okay to be scared. It doesn't mean you have to be paralyzed, so being scared is a natural response.

Speaker 1: 24:30

There have been plenty of times in my life I've been scared and I'm sure there will be plenty more.

Speaker 1: 24:35

But what I've learned through all of this and it's one of the things I work on to instill in my clients whom I get to help is that it's okay to be scared and it's okay for it to be a little messy, right the way you handle a difficult conversation with a manager, a supervisor, a fellow leader, or even a conversation you may have with one of your team members or direct reports.

Speaker 1: 25:05

It's okay to not expect yourself to have that perfect conversation the first time you do it, but if you're open and reflective and you ask yourself what did I do well, what did I learn? What might I do differently next time? The next time you have that conversation and you will you will have that experience to grow from. And so when we see people whom we work alongside of, who are master communicators or they're phenomenal strategists, we often forget all the things that had to happen to them before that got them to that place of excellence where we get to sometimes marvel at what they get to do day in and day out, and we'll know we'll get there.

Speaker 2: 25:51

Yes, and how much are they actually marveling themselves at the chance to be able to do that right? Yeah, what, if anything? John, did I not ask you that you would want to make sure that people knew?

Speaker 1: 26:04

We got a lot going on right now. It's hard Sometimes. It is hard to simply navigate the day and the news and everything we've got going on, and what I have found to be particularly helpful is a good laugh takes care of a lot. So I am someone who will laugh at myself first. I try not to take myself too seriously all the time and that brings a certain amount of levity to a lot of situations that I have especially found recently. People will say it's good to laugh a little bit. So sense of humor, when used appropriately, can be a really powerful tool, and I like to think I have a pretty good one.

Speaker 2: 27:02

Yeah, I can vouch for that For sure, absolutely so, john, always a pleasure to talk with you, and today is absolutely no different, and we will be sharing information in the notes about how to reach out to you and how to contact you in case anyone wants to have more of a conversation with you and, by the way, folks, I do recommend that John's awesome, and so with that, I just want to express all of my enthusiasm and appreciation for a conversation with you. Thank you, john.

Speaker 1: 27:31

Thank you, Becky. It's been such a pleasure and I am beyond grateful for our friendship. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 27:37

What a great conversation with John. I appreciate his willingness to share his story and the lessons he's taken from it. These skills, developed through his personal experience of coming out, directly translated into John's leadership approach and now informs his career coaching practice. He's helping mid-career professionals navigate complex professional transitions. Maybe yours isn't a coming out story. It may instead be sharing something else that is personal and has you holding back. John's experience gives us all food for thought.

Speaker 2: 28:15

So many of us talk about when things are hard, there's so much fear. We don't always acknowledge our courage when we take action anyway. It's okay to be scared. Yet fear doesn't need to paralyze you. John emphasizes that being nervous is natural. You can still be authentic and take necessary steps in your life and your career.

Speaker 2: 28:38

It may take time and support to figure out how to share and when to choose your moment. That's about strategy, not action. When you truly choose to act, you will find the path to get there. It's hard to share when you anticipate an unappealing response. You can set clear communication ground rules.

Speaker 2: 28:59

When I work with my clients, I ask them how they can ask for what they need or want from the other person. You can ask them to withhold questions and judgment until you have completed your point. You also have an option to pause and revisit the discussion if emotions on either side get a bit too much. Trust is built through consistent, predictable behavior. John learned in his life that people feel more comfortable when they know what to expect from you consistently. I imagine you nodding along with me as I say that. For me, it's also true that consistency leads to trust.

Speaker 2: 29:37

Surprise is a tool for disruption and not effective to use all the time. Who do you choose to be? I often ask clients how do you want to show up? When I say that, I mean which part of you do you want the other person to see, which thoughts to share, which emotions and feelings to reveal? It's a choice. What about when others are sharing with you? So many jump in to share similar experiences or ask questions. Remember how hard it can be to share and sometimes it doesn't feel very comfortable. You can choose how you want to show up in those moments too.

Speaker 2: 30:17

Are you willing to be an open and active listener? How ready are you to hold off on questions until the other person has shared the key points and conclusions? It's simple, but it's not always easy. Would you be interested in connecting with John to learn more about his story and the coaching he does. Check out the show notes to find him on LinkedIn and seek out the Mid-Career GPS podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.