Speaker 1: 0:01

I hear from people's parents or people's kids about how much fun they had skiing with me and how I did that, and that's what it's all about. That's what I want to provide. I want to help people enjoy the sport. I want them to connect with the things so that they're healthy and they're safe and they can ski all day. And I've done that and I don't have a pin. If I decide later on that that's something that's really important to me, I will go ahead and do that. But as far as I'm concerned, right now I'm at the mission accomplished stage, because I set out to do it for the right reasons.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. Success, happiness, achieving these milestones is so heavily tied to how we personally define them. Have you ever had that feeling that things should be feeling great and they just aren't? You strive for success, you learn all the things and I mean all the things then you make your impact and it just doesn't feel like it's enough. My guest today had a moment of self-awareness resulting from someone's question during a Q&A session. She was introduced to the term imposter syndrome and saw how it had been showing up in her life. Suddenly, she was looking at her efforts for success in a completely new way. If you're a leader feeling stuck, constantly chasing external validation or struggling to navigate the complex emotional landscape of professional growth, this episode it's made for you.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Chris Lebault is a speaker, podcaster and leadership coach dedicated to empowering engineering managers and executives to act with impact, with a focus on long-term growth rather than quick fixes. Chris helps leaders identify and overcome daily obstacles that hinder their effectiveness. With two decades of experience in engineering, manufacturing and quality, chris understands the challengestechnical side of work, from conflict management and delegation to vision setting and culture building. Hi, chris, welcome to the podcast. Hi, becky, thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:36

It's great to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Yeah, I'm really excited to hear about one of these inflection points within your career and really understand a little bit more about what your experience has been.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Well, there's been a lot of experiences and a lot of inflection points, to be sure.

Speaker 2: 2:52

You know it's funny. I hear that a lot from people as I talk about you know. Hey, you know, do you have an inflection point? And they're like oh yeah, becky, which one do you want me to talk about? Right, so it's fantastic, yeah, so I'm eager to kind of have this conversation about a specific one in conversation that we'll have today. When you think about kind of the topic that we'll explore today, what stands out to you about the time immediately before that change or that choice occurred?

Speaker 1: 3:25

The phrase when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I think is what's there. We have to be ready for it in order for the opportunity to really truly present itself. So everything needs to be ready to go. Fertile mind, having the right mindset to be able to receive the lesson, is critically important.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Yeah, so what was happening for you within your career and within your experience at that point in time that made you, as the student then, ready?

Speaker 1: 4:02

So I have taken a few different mindfulness-based courses in my life, and one of the things that has driven that is like I've got life good, I've got a happy marriage, we're doing okay financially, I've got this job, and I'm just not super happy. I'm still stressed. There's still this other stuff going on. I'm like what's going on, and I realized that I am the source of a lot of these things, and so that drove me to take a mindfulness-based stress reduction course, which opened up my eyes to how active my mind is and how much these thoughts influence how I'm feeling. Active my mind is and how much these thoughts influence how I'm feeling. And I also have taken courses around mindfulness-based self-compassion as well, and so I was really looking for solutions for me in order to adapt process better relate to what was going on in my life.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Yeah, yeah. When you reflect back now, what do you think was really that moment that you recognized I need to sign up for some of these classes? I need to find this way to fill up my cup in a different way than I've been doing it before.

Speaker 1: 5:26

So it wasn't just me that was feeling like that, my husband as well. So actually, my first mindfulness-based stress reduction course, my husband and I did it together when my daughter was very little. We had a grandma or a babysitter come over so we could go to the class together. So we both were on this journey and acknowledged that this was something that was important for us. My husband did have a meditation practice because he participated in martial arts and I was just having a hard time getting on board with the Zen meditation style, so I wanted to explore this new one and invited him to come on that journey with me.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Okay. So there's this moment of on the outside, things look pretty good and at the same time, internally, you're in this kind of eh, there's something that's not quite there at that point. Eh, there's something that's not quite there at that point. So, when you're taking these courses and you're understanding more about yourself, more about, probably, your relationship with your husband and everything, how much closer were you finding yourself toward finding that happiness or that contentment at that point in time.

Speaker 1: 6:43

I think for me, I realized that I truly have control over that. And I think, in general, like we seek happiness, like we hope it slaps us upside the head, it's this place to get to, and so I go on and on and on about like what I think happiness is with that realizing that I really had the power and it was how I was reacting to the things that were going on that was creating that frustration and disappointment that I was experiencing. So I think the big aha was how much control I really truly had, and it wasn't so much about trying to seek it.

Speaker 2: 7:33

Okay, okay, you know, and it's an interesting element there, right, where we have the happiness within ourselves and yet we keep on looking, and we're looking everywhere except for where it truly is. And so when you really started to turn that corner, I know there were some changes and some specific insights that you had at that moment. Talk to me a little bit about what that change looked like for you.

Speaker 1: 8:02

The biggest epiphany that I have had on this road was I happened to be in a workshop for mindfulness-based self-compassion with Christopher Germer and Kristen Neff, who are like the big mindful self-compassion people here in the States. So my brain was super charged and primed around the self-compassion aspect. And somebody in the audience at the end for the Q&A somebody in the audience asked a question if there had been any research done about the relationship of self-compassion with imposter syndrome, and at this point in time I had never heard the phrase imposter syndrome. So I whipped out my phone and Googled it and I went you've got to be kidding me. This is a thing.

Speaker 1: 8:50

There are other people that experience this and it was in that moment that I that was the thing that clicked all of this stuff I've been doing to prime myself that I'm the one driving this, I'm the one that's striving, I'm trying to prove myself to me, and that opened up a whole new perspective on what it was that was driving me Professionally, different things I was doing personally, all this striving that I was. Just there was a lot of striving that was happening, that was I thought was going to bring me happiness and it was bringing me stress.

Speaker 2: 9:36

Yeah, so in that moment it almost sounds like you had a chance to decide between striving and stress right Success and stress and it was really an internal measure of that instead of an external one. How much do you think that that's true?

Speaker 1: 9:57

So I'm a lifelong learner. I like challenges, I love all of these things. One of my best friends, he and I we've gone after multiple certifications together and he coined the term certification whore and I wear it proudly because we like the challenge, we like the structure, we like doing those things. I've met many friends and so I don't regret these things, though I've come to realize that I have pursued many of these things because I wanted to prove myself to me. I thought that by going and getting this thing, that I was going to feel better about myself somehow, and I can tell you that many of them were empty, which is why it's like an addict. You got to go to the next one, you got to get the next one, and when this moment happened for me, I was in the process of. It's called certified in the National Ski Patrol and it's kind of like like the PhD of ski patrol. It's the highest level that you can attain. Level that you can attain. There's things on avalanche, travel and finding people buried in the snow and all this stuff with ropes and skiing.

Speaker 1: 11:13

It's a multiple year journey and I was in my third year. I had one module left and this experience I had, this inflection point was about two or three months before the exam for this final thing that I had to do, and it was so freeing and liberating to have this awakening about it and it really took some of the pressure off of it, saying like, oh wait, like look at this journey, look at what I've learned. I don't. I mean, I want the pin, but I don't have to have the pin. I can embrace this journey and I don't have to. I don't have to prove myself to me anymore. I get it now. So that was a huge weight off my shoulders because now I can be in the moment, be a part of this, I can ask some of these questions. So this extra level of awareness has been really powerful to see things through a different lens and perspective.

Speaker 2: 12:19

So I have to ask you, you know, did you finish the course? Yes, I did Okay. Have to ask you, you know, did you finish the course? Yes, I did Okay. When you think about that, that place where you could recognize that you were doing it for you so that you could have the pin, but not do it so that you could prove that you had achieved this big thing, that was probably quite challenging. A multi-year course is no easy path to take. What were you considering as the choice when you had that recognition about that particular program?

Speaker 1: 13:08

there. But it really helped me see what has driven me to do different things, and it's allowed me to make sure that I check myself as soon as somebody mentions something and I'm like, yay, let's go do that. That's a signal for me to pump the brakes and say, okay, well, what's really in it? Like, yes, you have this hyper achiever tendency to go after things and is this really going to have the fun factor? So, making wiser decisions about is this going to have the appropriate fun to stress ratio in it?

Speaker 2: 13:43

Absolutely, because learning can be stressful even when we're enjoying it. There's that moment where you're looking at that ski patrol certification. There's that moment that you're in the self-compassion session and hearing that word or phrase I guess, imposter syndrome for the first time. As you heard that phrase imposter syndrome what were the behaviors that you noticed to protect yourself prior to that?

Speaker 1: 14:14

Well, I think the big thing that drove me was external validation by going through and doing that, because, right, so I didn't have that self-compassion to find that validation. You know the you are enough side of stuff. And so it was that hungry ghost kind of thing where you're constantly seeking something, trying to find that thing that you're looking for, and maybe you find it. Whatever you get that pin. And then two weeks later the excitement wears off and you're like, oh, here I am again. As Jack Kornfield says, after the ecstasy, the laundry, we come down off that thing, and then all of a sudden we're like, oh, it's life again. Well now, what do I do with myself?

Speaker 2: 15:07

Exactly, exactly when I was in HR. It's why I always came to a reflection to my clients were saying money only lasts so long. Then we start to incorporate that into our everyday life and we no longer remember that we didn't have X percent on our check, you know, three months ago, and it definitely has a bit of a half-life right in terms of where that goes for us. And one of the reasons I wanted to ask you that question was because there's this element of the chase and I know you're still sort of the learner, right, but after you were familiar with imposter syndrome and hear that term and it becomes part of your vocabulary and then you have that moment where you're like, oh, I get how I'm actually doing this now. How did that change how you looked at the need for certifications going forward?

Speaker 1: 16:07

I think it made me a little bit wiser going into it, so that I wasn't putting as much stress on myself, because I was more interested in the fun and the learning and taking all this like, oh, I have to prove myself to me, I have to prove myself to other people. So it really opened up that journey in order to be able to be like this is something that I truly want to do and that I was doing things for the right reasons.

Speaker 2: 16:38

Yes, Well, and I think about that external validation piece of things too, where now you're looking at yourself and saying, am I happy with this, does this bring contentment to me? And you're no longer looking for that external validation. And, of course, we still like people to say, yeah, you, you're so awesome, right, that feels good, no matter who you are. Yeah, how does your relationship with that change since this revelation?

Speaker 1: 17:07

Well, I have another story about another pin that happened last month. So since I've exhausted things to do within the National Ski Patrol, I've bounded over to the Professional Ski Instructors of America and so there's right, there's snowboarding, alpine, there's all these different things and there's levels one, two and three, and I have been in pursuit of my level two, alpine, for two years. I took all there's four modules. I took all the modules last year. I did not pass the teach module and so I'm like okay, I got great feedback. I you know, having having a goal, so this is all with awareness, right, so I understand the whole imposter thing and everything else. I really want to be a better instructor and having this goal, having a date, knowing that I need to have my stuff together on February 10th or whatever the date was was great for that accountability and it pushed me to step up and lead more clinics to find my voice and do all of those things. Unfortunately, on the day of the test I did not bring my A game and there were some other things. I didn't get the pin and I was really disappointed about that. For about a half an hour I'm driving home, I'm reflecting on that. I was like hey, my goal in this was to become a better instructor.

Speaker 1: 18:42

I have people that request. Hey, chris, will you come out and ski with me? I have that request. Hey, chris, will you come out and ski with me? I have right, it's a family thing. I hear from people's parents or people's kids about how much fun they had skiing with me and how I did that, and that's what it's all about. That's what I want to provide. I want to help people enjoy the sport. I want them to connect with the things so that they're healthy and they're safe and they can ski all day. And I've done that and I don't have a pin. If I decide later on that that's something that's really important to me, I will go ahead and do that. But as far as I'm concerned, right now I'm at the mission accomplished stage, because I set out to do it for the right reasons.

Speaker 2: 19:31

Absolutely. And what's amazing about that is that after the 30 minutes of disappointment because not getting the pin disappointment, you get to sit with that right. That's perfectly fair. And yet that recognition of except, I met the goal, I didn't get the pin and yet I met the goal and I can feel really good, really content, ready to take on the world and do all of these amazing things with what I've learned, even without the awards and the parades and all of those things that we might be looking for at different times. Looking for at different times and I guess I think about it too in terms of I know you're a leadership coach at this point in time and I'm curious when you think about your leadership coaching and where you focus and how you do that. How does imposter syndrome and sort of recognizing did I win the goal even if I didn't get the prize kind of thinking show up in your coaching?

Speaker 1: 20:35

So I think for me, a part of this journey has been that whole like journey versus goal, journey versus goal, and it was probably about a year into my leadership coaching business that I really had maybe another inflection point, but I had this revelation around for me, it's not so much about what it is I want to be when I grow up, it's how I want to be, and that was a huge shift, because it's so hard to project and have this goal and beat myself up and get there in a straight line or as efficiently and as fast as I can, that I have the control in this moment to be the person that I want to be.

Speaker 1: 21:22

And we often relinquish that because we're on autopilot, we have muscle memory. This is how we go about our day, this is how we deal with that person, this is how we deal with that particular situation, and so I feel like that really put me back into the driver's seat with things. And you know we talk about the head trash stories we tell ourselves and those types of things. And you know we talk about the head trash stories we tell ourselves and those types of things, and I think that that's a challenge that a lot of people have out there is they don't realize how much control they do have over their actions, that they do have over their thoughts, and that is a huge part of it when we understand what knobs we have and that we can actually turn some of that. We can't control the universe, but we can control how we respond to things. I feel like that's a really essential skill to be honed, that we unpack at various levels in different ways depending upon where somebody's at when they come to coaching.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Well, and the really meaningful thing that I hear a lot of meaningful things in that, but one of the main meaning things that I hear in that is how that parallel really does relate back to just last month, where you're able to say you know, I maybe didn't get as far as I would have envisioned for myself and at the same time, I'm content because I got what I actually wanted.

Speaker 2: 23:02

There's a difference between what we want and what we need, and what you wanted may have been that pin, along with that knowledge and that ability to do all of the education and components that you were trained to do. The lack of pin doesn't mean that you can't do those things. It just means you didn't pass an exam, which is very different. And so when we're out in the workplace and we think about what we want instead of who we are, there is a lot more hurdles in terms of getting to that. What, when, who is a choice you get to make to your point all of the time, every moment, we get to choose who we are, when we're conscious of that. We're all a work in progress, so where?

Speaker 1: 23:53

is it?

Speaker 2: 23:53

that you see this opportunity for you to go even farther down this path, not only for yourself, but in so many ways that we bring to our clients what we bring for ourselves. Where do you think this goes for you next?

Speaker 1: 24:10

Wow, that's a big question, I think, for me. So my, my personality, my engineering background. When I graduated from high school, I got my engineering degree. I was going to solve the world's problems with math and science. I was going to build things that didn't break and I had my calculator and my engineering paper and I was really ready to go.

Speaker 1: 24:35

And I wasn't a people person, I wasn't any of that stuff. And that was the story that I told myself. And as I got out into the world and learned about emotional intelligence, I was like, oh, why aren't these things working? Like, oh, how do I navigate these office politics? How do I get, how do I communicate with people? I had quite the journey in unpacking and so I feel that there's this pendulum swing that I'm, there's this arc that's happening and having my own business, like there's no plan, there's no structure, like I did great in college. There's a structure and this is the class that you take, and then you take this class next and you get grades and you get feedback and you have all of those things, which is one of the reasons why I enjoy these certifications, because there's a process and people roll out this red carpet and say you know you do A and then you do B.

Speaker 1: 25:30

Roll out this red carpet and say you know, you do A and then you do B, and they're all frameworks for, you know, achievement in a way. So for me, it's starting to really build and find more comfort in places that aren't predictable. One of the things that I've noticed is I have this analytical mind. I like to solve the problem, I like to put a process together. I've got my flow chart, I've got my model, I'm super organized and that works really great in a predictable world, and not all of life is predictable.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Much of it isn't Owning a business, you know, forecasting the future, and so I came to this realization, actually working with my coach. I feel all coaches should have a coach because I believe in coaching and what I discovered with him is that I have been driving myself crazy trying to create models and processes for things that are not predictable. So it's really like right Mind blown with this piece of information and I'm sitting here saying it like duh, but that's my favorite tool and so that's where I go. And so for me, thinking about the journey and not necessarily where we're going, and knowing the inputs and the outputs and all those things, my challenge now is to embrace that part and really lean even harder into this mindset that I have and how that means and how I navigate my business.

Speaker 2: 27:13

Right, and especially when we're inside our heads and we're thinking, oh my gosh, we're putting this out into the world you know publishing stuff on social media or putting your thoughts out into I know you do speaking engagements and things like that as well and it's like I'm standing up here now I better say something.

Speaker 2: 27:37

And yet there can be some terror behind that to say what if I put my foot in my mouth and I say the wrong thing and there's an element of boy, they could find out that imposter piece, because that imposter doesn't necessarily go away. I don't agree that it's a syndrome, but I do appreciate the imposter. But the imposter actually seems to change based upon how we grow and develop, and that's why I like to think about where is it that people are going? Because it's what is the next challenge in front of me, and I love that you're talking here about where does my business go? Where does that start to expand? Not necessarily in terms of programming or whatever, but that expand that place in my heart or the way that I approach that. That's really what I was hearing when you were talking about that. I'm used to process and tools and I love those kinds of things, but there's a part of the universe in which those tools won't help you get from here to there, and I hear you wanting to explore that and I think that's really fantastic.

Speaker 1: 28:45

Yeah, for me, stepping out of the super analytical world, starting my own business, meeting entrepreneurs that are, I'll say, very entrepreneurial mindset type people to say, oh, chris, you just have to take messy action. And I'm like you got to be kidding me. I'm like I don't do messy action. And so I did come to realize that I do have to take action, and so I've rebranded it as curious action that it's messy, just doesn't have an intent or an endpoint. For me, I needed to embody that and structure it a little bit more like an experiment.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Okay, now we're going to go get that data, we're going to find out is this predictable or not? And it might take me a lot of data to figure out that my initial assumption, to confirm it, or that I was right, or that I was wrong with that initial hypothesis. And that's a big part of embracing that journey and knowing that I don't necessarily have all the right answers and, like you said, putting yourself out there the first few podcast episodes that I don't necessarily have all the right answers and, like you said, putting yourself out there the first few podcast episodes that I recorded, I was like it's even worse than speaking, to doing something online where you can't see the people. You at least know they're there.

Speaker 2: 30:03

But right and you have an idea?

Speaker 1: 30:06

Yes, yeah, like you, at least like. Okay, these people are within this organization. This is the type of roles that they have.

Speaker 2: 30:11

You have something about that audience, but as soon as you launch a podcast or put it on YouTube, it can go anywhere, and that can be very nerve wracking, absolutely, and like you say, it's curious instead of messy, because there's still an intention, there's still a direction that goes and where I'm really hearing so many of the connections in this, honestly, is this idea of this openness, this willingness to explore who you are, how you function, because there's this piece that maybe isn't fitting in quite the way that you wanted to and that prepared you to hear about the imposter syndrome and all of the components tied to that and then to experience that awareness of wait a second, what am I doing this for? What is the why behind this? And is it serving me or is it not serving me? And really recognizing that shift and that change that you could have gone either way. You could have said you know what? I need the pins. I need all the pins. Every single one must be. I will wear a shirt that only has these pins. And instead what you said was I'm pretty smart, I'm pretty capable and I have done some really awesome things and I don't need to prove this to myself or to anyone else anymore, and I really appreciate that. About your story, I'm curious, chris is there anything that you think is really important for the listeners to know about this kind of change in your life or this transition that I haven't asked you.

Speaker 1: 31:52

I think the biggest thing is that you can't force this to happen. There's not a course that you can. You know, I mean, yes, I did take some courses with things along the way. I have worked with people. Coaching is a great opportunity because, right, I think when people are telling me things, I feel like I have sometimes this ability to read between. I can sort of see the gears turning and have the ability to ask a question. That can not that I'm trying to move somebody in that direction, but to ask these things of people so that they can start to uncover some of their things more expediently. Well, that's that curiosity again.

Speaker 1: 32:36

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:37

I mean.

Speaker 1: 32:38

I live, live, die, breathe and eat it. Probably I'm a disc, I'm a C conscientious person, so I'm analytical and reserved and I will sit there and I will listen and ask questions all day not make it, not make a decision or move forward. But I think it's really being open to the journey and asking some of these deep questions and taking the time to to ask, to do it, and not not just once. You know. There's so many opportunities coaching, the mindfulness-based stuff, retreats, workshops there's a lot of different resources that are out there and it can take a while to unpack things. So be open, have those conversations, dig deep and read your tea leaves and some of those things that you discover you might be like oh wow, if I would have been open to that, I could have saved myself 10 years of frustration. So it comes to us. It's a process.

Speaker 2: 33:50

Yeah, and it makes me think about where we even started the conversation. It's a process, yeah, yeah, and it makes me think about where we even started the conversation. When the student is ready, the teacher appears and there's that component that comes into play where you can go to the course. But if the student isn't ready, then the material will only hit later. I find sometimes that I've looked at things after I'd gone through the course, maybe a year or two prior, and I find it and I'm flipping through it and I think, oh, I totally didn't get that when I went through the course, but now it lands with me in a very different way. So I really appreciate that about what you're saying and really appreciate you coming onto the podcast with us today. I'm really excited to have you here and share your experience and just want to let you know how much I appreciate you.

Speaker 1: 34:41

Awesome. This has been a great conversation, Becky. I really appreciate the invitation. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 34:45

Absolutely. We'll talk soon. What a thoughtful and introspective conversation with Chris. When change happens, we can see the shifts in behavior without always seeing how the shift in mindset occurred. I appreciate Chris's willingness to share her personal and inner journey with us.

Speaker 2: 35:06

Her journey isn't just another leadership story. It's a roadmap for those who feel like an imposter or are trapped in a cycle of endless achievement without fulfillment. She recognized that her achievement orientation had grown beyond the desire to learn. There was an emotional driver based on other root causes. Meaningfully, chris chose to reflect and choose what she wanted to do with that information. When she didn't get the ski instruction pin, it saddened her but didn't derail her. The goal had been achieved, even if the pin wasn't. While her internal wiring isn't to wing it and make it messy, chris did recognize that it's her curiosity that drives her to learn. The learning is the journey and that journey has a reward for her.

Speaker 2: 36:02

You can ask yourself why am I doing this thing? What is the true goal? Is your goal to get all the pins? Are you proving to yourself that you are enough? Maybe proving that to others? Look, there is no harm in choosing the challenge to prove you can, as long as it doesn't compromise your general happiness and fulfillment. You don't have to do it yourself. You can actually learn from Chris's story. Go ahead and do the thing or learn the thing. Also, spend time thinking about what it does for you. Is it only the outcome that serves you, or do you see the value in the journey as well? If you're interested in learning more about and from Chris, you can find her LinkedIn details in the show notes. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.