Shannon: 0:01

I think my child gave me zen and I came back like because I just felt like I had given my all and if they weren't going to give me the opportunity to grow, why am I going to take another lateral position when I have the choice to at least take a severance and kind of go somewhere else and do something else? When I told that manager I'm not taking it, I knew potentially that meant I would not have a job. I was very sound in that decision.

Beki: 0:28

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. There are moments in your life and career that change your priorities. For my guest today, it was promises, promises, promises followed by you guessed it a failure to deliver. Sometimes you need to choose yourself when others cannot even believe you would be so bold. Today, we unpack the realities of corporate loyalty, the importance of setting boundaries and how defining your own work-life balance can transform not only your career but your life.

Beki: 1:07

Today's guest is Shannon King. She's a digital marketing strategist, entrepreneur and natural conversationalist, with a gift for turning ideas into stories that stick. With over 15 years of experience in marketing, interactive media and content management, shannon has mastered everything from social media and content management. Shannon has mastered everything from social media strategy to crisis management, guiding brands through growth and transformation. She's the founder of Visionary, creative Concepts and Branding, where she blends creativity with analytics to deliver powerful campaigns and lasting connections. She's a proud Temple University alum, with a master's in social media and content management from Quinnipiac.

Beki: 1:50

Shannon brings both expertise and heart to every conversation. Get ready to be inspired. I've loved every conversation with Shannon and I believe you will enjoy ours today. Welcome to the mic, shannon. Thank you, it's great to have you here. It really is I'm not overstating it that I have loved every conversation that we've had, and today we get to focus on you and talk a little bit about a point in your life that was meaningful on a lot of different levels, and I'm wondering if we could just start with the 35,000 foot version of what was that inflection point in your life that we'll be talking about today.

Shannon: 2:33

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say. For me that point was when I got pregnant with my son was in a transition period at my job. That kind of led to me leaving that company and really balancing what work-life balance really looked like.

Beki: 2:53

And this is one of those things that's a really challenging thing to do, because this idea of work-life balance is complicated, because that balance is not one and done, you don't find it and then you know, just hold on to that forever, because life life's and we keep on having to shift and adapt. So, in your situation, let's turn back the clock, before you made the decisions that you made. What was going on with that job?

Shannon: 3:21

maybe like before you got pregnant, or as you got pregnant with that job, maybe like before you got pregnant or as you got pregnant. So I worked in a fast paced sales environment. So there was always this knowledge and understanding that there was going to be shifts, restructuring, happening all the time. So I worked there for seven years. There had been maybe three or four restructurings along the way, nothing that really directly touched me. I might have had a new manager or something like that. But the department that I was always in I literally built it from the ground.

Shannon: 3:53

I graduated college, temple University, and went right into this job. So the position was new. I kind of set the foundation for it. They expanded into other areas and districts, if you, so to speak, with my same position. So it was kind of set the foundation for it. They expanded into other areas and districts, if you, so to speak, with my same position. So it was kind of like that was my first baby, before I had one. And then, shifting, it kind of just turned into okay, where do I go now? What's the growth opportunity? How do we develop this role more? And so when the restructuring happened, they were trying to figure that out. But because I was kind of at the forefront, it was all right, you're going to have a leadership role. You're going to be a lead. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. It was a lot of promises made that didn't necessarily work out the way that they had promised they would.

Beki: 4:41

As is so often the case, right Like there's a, there's a path that can evolve and grow and develop in this particular direction, and that doesn't always live up to the promise and live up to its potential Right. So what happened? What changed when you?

Shannon: 5:02

discovered you were pregnant. So at that point they were like in the middle of restructuring, and so my panic was what does that mean? Now? Clearly, I understood that I had job security, so to speak, but I didn't want to miss my opportunity for growth. So I remember reaching out to my manager at the time, who I will say I thought was a friend I thought was a friend, not just a boss and so we had had private, closed door conversations about developing me, what that looked like. I was taking leadership classes because it was pretty much almost promised to me that I was going to have a leadership role in whatever restructuring it was going to happen.

Shannon: 5:42

And so while I was pregnant, it was kind of like nerve wracking because we didn't know when the restructuring was going to happen. I had plenty of baby showers Everyone would shower me with love, but no one really knew what was going on in their departments, and so I'll guess we'll call it client services. Overall, we were the support staff for the sales teams, and so when I went out on leave which was unexpected I went out earlier than I thought. Didn't plan, okay, didn't plan, it was only five days early, but it was still early enough where we didn't know when the restructuring was going to happen. But for my department specifically, it happened when I was on leave. On leave, so what happened was on leave, I interviewed for the management position. So my supervisor at the time was texting me on leave, maternity leave. For me to apply I had to apply externally. But I actually had my interview for one of the senior positions actually when I was on maternity leave.

Beki: 6:47

Okay, so you know my, my former HR brain is going tick tick, tick tick tick something like that. Right, and one of the key things with that, for folks listening, if you don't know when you're on leave, you're on leave and you're not supposed to be working or doing anything related to working during that time, and that's why we're kind of going huh right.

Beki: 7:12

So not okay and at the same time, based on what you said before, I'm hearing you say yeah, except for I wanted the development, I wanted the role. So I decided to roll with the punches with this, because my other choice would have been stay on, leave, not be involved, and then basically give it to someone else because I never even weighed in to say, hey, pick me, consider me at that point in time. Is that fair to say?

Shannon: 7:40

Yeah, absolutely. I knew it wasn't technically right when it comes to an HR perspective, but that was my only opportunity to interview for a position I felt I deserved at the time.

Beki: 7:53

Yeah, yeah, and you described this as an inflection point. At that particular stage, when you were looking at the opportunity to grow, what were you seeing as the likely outcomes, the likely possibilities?

Shannon: 8:10

Well, I for sure knew I was going to get it. No one was going to tell me otherwise. My colleagues thought I was going to get it. It wasn't a question. There was two positions, so there was a manager and a supervisor, so to speak. So it was like I was going to get one of them. So it was either going to be the manager position or supervisor position. I just had to kind of go through the ebbs and flows of interviewing and doing the right way, but I for sure was like this is going to be great. I just had a baby. This is, you know, promotion. All the good things I'm going to have. I'm going to have it all. What a great year.

Beki: 8:42

Look at, I get a baby. I get promotion with my job Like how's next year going to be better than this? Right, exactly, yes, yeah, so so what happened?

Shannon: 8:52

So I came back from maternity leave, I took three months and they had selected an external candidate for the manager position, which is always fun when you have more experience. But there was still the supervisor position open. So at that point in time I my former boss and so I thought friendly friend at the time kind of was like this is given like submit the supervisor position, so I submitted for that. Um, at the same time there was like this is given like submit the supervisor position, so I submitted for that. At the same time there was like a lateral it was basically a title change, but it was a lateral move that they said was going to be decided. So some people were getting let go. So it was going to be decided based off of the supervisor. You can then apply for the lateral position. So I got a call from the manager after I submitted my application. So I got a call from the manager after I submitted my application.

Shannon: 9:47

I got a call from the new manager that hadn't been there maybe a month, so I had been back two weeks, two or three weeks at this time and they were urging me to apply for the lateral position.

Shannon: 9:59

And that's when I paused because I said well, I thought we were waiting till we decided on the supervisor for that to happen. And so from that conversation she seemed a little uncomfortable and I said well, I don't really want to apply, and so I know if I didn't get the supervisor position. She also interviewed me, but again, this is someone that came externally, had no knowledge of me other than what was on my resume, no relationship at that point with me other than what she's learned, and so she's like well, I think you should apply. We want to close it because we're getting a lot of applicants. Yada, yada, yada. I said no, I think I'm going to wait. And from that my boss at the time, who again I considered a friend, called me immediately and in so many words basically said I did not get the supervisor role and that I should apply for that lateral position. And at that point I said no.

Shannon: 10:56

And I knew what that meant. I was taking a severance package. I was a little panicked because I just had a newborn and I didn't know what that meant. But I think at that time I had kind of given all, especially interviewing on Lee. I was just like okay. So after that she's like okay. And then they announced to the supervisor was, I think, a week or so later.

Beki: 11:20

Okay, okay, clearly not your name on that line.

Shannon: 11:24

But can I just caveat that Because there was restructuring, the person that got the supervisor role was so deserving Okay, Been there 20 years, would have loved to work with she. Probably she actually got demoted. In my perspective, I feel like she should have gotten a manager position. But had that been a conversation, I feel like I would have been a little bit more understanding To save someone else's job that had been vested way longer than I had. I would have had greater understanding than the conversation that I did have.

Beki: 11:59

Right, right describe that is, all of these opportunities for productive communication that could have and sounds like did not take place during that whole process. What do you believe was not said that should have been said to you in that process?

Shannon: 12:21

So I don't know, because I'm a blunt person and professionally and professionally I feel like there's a lot of like politicking that I'm not really a fan of. But I know that in corporate America and the corporate world you have to be and I know again, like I said, looking, you know, fast forward to understanding who got the supervisor role. I knew exactly what happened. We had to save jobs. There was some restructuring. We needed to save her. She had been there 10, 20 years.

Shannon: 12:53

At that point in time, Of course, I would want you to keep your job. I'm not totally self-serving, but I think the conversation was there were so many promises made and so much. I don't want to say that I got gassed, but I thought this was for sure I had put in my time, I had been there seven years, I had helped develop this whole entire department. For sure, they wanted me to have leadership experience. Well, hey, give me the leadership experience. I hate that narrative of you don't have any. Well, how am I supposed to get any when you're not giving me an opportunity to lead?

Shannon: 13:26

So, because in all other cases I trained other people, I was leading. I just didn't have the title, I didn't have direct reports. So I think for me the communication just wasn't open and honest and I kind of feel like they were dragging me along because I was important to the team, I did add value. So of course I don't want to, you know, rile the nest of like hey, she might quit. So of course I don't want to. You know, rile the nest of like hey, she might quit. So I think they said the right things at the right time to keep me as long as I was there, because I was promised a lot of things over the years of how great and amazing I was. But Okay.

Shannon: 14:03

And in the end.

Beki: 14:05

It wasn't enough for them to be that transparent, to be that blunt that you were, but they were not in terms of what their expectations were, maybe, but specifically what they needed to solve around you, based on, like, the experiences that you've had since then, because I know your son is no longer a newborn right. So, since that time, what have you kind of noticed around these situations that you wish you?

Shannon: 14:40

would have known back then. That's a millennial and I went into the work environment with a lot of the superiors having negative connotations for millennials and so I was conditioned to not ask for anything that I didn't deserve or earn. So I was very much hard worker, work extra hours, you know, do extra things that I'm not getting paid for, just to prove that I'm not this lazy, entitled millennial that just wants more money without doing more things. Because that was what was said to me very early on after I graduated. So I made it a point for me to like push through that, make sure that I was a hard worker, make sure I was kind of following through on tasks and so that situation and just moving forward, understanding that I worked the hardest I could, I did a lot, I traveled a lot. I probably overdid it when it comes to a balance of what my life could have been at the time versus how much I dedicated to that position.

Shannon: 15:51

So, after having my son and that whole experience of like I have nothing to show for it other than a severance package. And I didn't even get an exit interview with my manager. She was on vacation. So that was more like a slap in the face of wow, okay, I gave all this time and they gave me like employee of the month and I feel like those things were just ways to keep me engaged, but the real that I didn't. I left not feeling valued the real that I didn't.

Shannon: 16:27

I left not feeling valued, yeah, and so I left kind of understanding that jobs come and go and I can't rely on a job to do anything for me. So having my but it was the best blessing because I was home with my kid at the time, but it was okay. I have to get my priorities in check because jobs come and go. I'm going to retire eventually. What's my life? What's important in my life right now? What is a priority for me?

Beki: 16:54

Well, and at that point in time, I can't imagine that you were feeling all you know rainbows and unicorns about that organization, right, what were some of the things that you were feeling and thinking at that point in time as you made that decision not to submit that final application?

Shannon: 17:23

back like because I just felt like I had given my all and if they weren't going to give me the opportunity to grow, why am I going to take another lateral position when I have the choice to at least take a severance and kind of go some, go somewhere else and do something else? When I told that manager, yeah, I'm not taking it, I knew potentially that meant I would not have a job. I was very sound in that decision. That wasn't like I don't want to say it wasn't an emotional decision, because it was. I. I loved majority of my coworkers. Um, I think I had a healthy relationship overall.

Shannon: 17:57

There was obviously some negatives, but overall loved. 95% of my coworkers had a great experience. I feel like I may have left my mark, but I really was like I'm not going to do this. You're not going to just you're going to have someone that's external be my direct report. Ask me for all my information. I've already been down this road. I've already done this. So it was. There was no nerves when I said no, I'm not applying. I knew potentially what that meant and I was at peace with it.

Beki: 18:31

I was like it is what it is.

Shannon: 18:36

You know I'll have faith that it will work out the way that it's going to work out, but I just felt like I needed to stand on my word and not be taken advantage of for another. You know, seven years we're going to promise you things that you're not giving me you know, seven years, we're going to promise you things that you're not giving me.

Beki: 18:52

You know, one of the things that I hear people talk about a lot is I don't know how I would explain this to my next employer, right, because it looks like I just walked away from something that could have been there, which is essentially true, but there's a story there. There's a message about why I'm curious, as you were telling other people, or even interviewing for that next role. How did that play?

Shannon: 19:14

out for you. Oh fabulous.

Shannon: 19:16

I just said that there was a restructuring and my position was eliminated. I did not lie, that was a factual thing. My position was no longer there, it was turned into something else. I did not get you know, there was no anger at that point and I had amazing referrals from my past job. I didn't leave, Heck, the last day I bought after the severance took a while. So I actually after I knew that I wasn't going to be there, the severance took a while. So I I actually after I knew that I wasn't going to be there. I had to work for a month before I was, before my last day, so I bought donuts.

Shannon: 19:52

I left with grace. I didn't I didn't, you know, blow up the whole place with curses or all that stuff. I left like I would want to have been treated during that whole entire interviewing process. I left. I gave all the flowers to all the people that helped me throughout the time. So my references were great. There was no like I didn't use my previous boss as a reference, but other than that we were good. So I just I kept it general.

Beki: 20:21

Well, and I mean, I'm hearing you were selective about who you used as a reference, knowing that they would give you the flowers, just like you gave the flowers to them, and there was that mutual respect, that mutual opportunity to do those things together, recognizing that there are some people who may not give you the best review, and it's one of those things that feels like it's so incredibly important is to think about that. It's not just oh well, this was my manager, therefore that's the name I have to give. That's not necessarily that reference piece of it.

Beki: 21:00

The other component that I really heard is that grace in the exit that it's not, you know, like let's all keep our head up and maybe not a smile on our face if we're not really feeling the smile, but we can keep our head up, we can keep our pride and our dignity, and especially that dignity and that's what it sounds like you really focused on was what are the important things for me to leave. Like you really focused on was what are the important things for me to leave, what are the important things to take with me as I go on to whatever future might be in front of me?

Shannon: 21:35

Yeah, and I, like I said, I think I was at peace at that point in time, my last call with all of the people that I trained and were now a part of the new team. It fluffed my ego a lot because they all were like you started this, you were great, you were amazing. We're going to miss you. You should have. So it was like I didn't have to say anything. My relationships and my work spoke volumes, that I didn't feel the need to clap back at anybody or make anybody lose lives. The now I did ask exit interview questions, but overall my work and my relationships, everyone spoke volumes. I didn't have to say anything. Everyone else kind of spoke for me.

Beki: 22:17

And you've said a couple of times too that by that point in time, right, there wasn't anger. What was it that you had to do within yourself? Because I know you do that kind of work right when it's okay. So this isn't the side that they need to see. I can handle myself inside myself and then be prepared for whatever I want to do over there. But what was that process like to get to that piece?

Shannon: 22:43

That's a really good question. I feel like that's a whole direct. We're going somewhere else there, wait a minute. So I would say in general even through college as a Black woman I know that want to say like an angry side, because people get angry at work, but just a side that I can't come back from. So had there been instances where I might've come out of character, yes, but not to the point where I am like tearing down walls and things of that nature.

Shannon: 23:26

So I think that's been ingrained in me since I've worked anywhere is to just show up professional. I could feel all the feelings you know towards some, but that's why I have friends and that's why therapy works. And you know I don't need to offload my issues with everyone. You know there are people, like I said, in that organization, that I was really close friends with. We would go out to lunch. I would, you know, unwind, unload the way I needed to and then show up in a different way. You know, as long as we are respectful, I don't have to like you to work with you. That's been my mantra since the beginning. But as long as there's a common courtesy and respect, you're never going to get me out of my character Cause.

Beki: 24:10

That's something I you can't always come back from Well and and from what you're saying, and what I know from previous conversations with you is that idea of your character means a lot to you. Right, Like, I am going to put my best self forward and that means that all of the other things around relationships and pieces I'm going to be selective about where I put that energy and how big I let it be before I'm able to move through it a little bit more. You know, I think this is just such a powerful example, because it is a situation where you're wrestling with all of this disappointment, not only disappointment about a story you made up in your own head, but a story that was fed to you so that you had reasonable expectations that were not met and when you exited that organization, it worked out okay. What was it after you were no longer with them that you did to ensure that your next step was going to be a positive step for you?

Shannon: 25:23

So I would say, overall I really had to do some self-talk, some positive talk to myself, because I'm not going to lie. When I left, I left at peace because I knew that I was being taken advantage of in so many different ways, so to speak. But I really then started to question, like I went down the rabbit hole of like, am I as good as I say I am? Am I an expert in this? I really started to question was I deserving or did I just think I deserved it? Like there was a lot of questions that I had to answer for myself, but then I had obviously loved ones and people around me like no, you're capable, all the positive like affirmations that I needed.

Shannon: 26:07

At the same time I was also postpartum. That was a fun time to really feel like, hey, am I okay? Like so I did have a time period where I did go a little crazy in my mind. I'm just kind of really questioning if I was good enough or as good as I thought I was, and so that just took time, that took therapy, that took just kind of recentering myself what I wanted to do, what my purpose was in life. You know all the questions you ask after kind of a major shift in your life.

Shannon: 26:42

And then everybody in my family thought I was crazy for, like, leaving a steady, paying job that I had been there for a very long time to then what are you going to do? Well, I spent time with my kid. I worked on and I mean at the time because I did have some postpartum anxiety and stuff that was going on kind of worked out in my favor to have that time to kind of focus on that and focus on my mental health. But I'm not gonna lie, it was hard but it was really reminding myself, working out, spending time with my son and my husband and just kind of recentering myself. But that was a really tough time because that was a transition. And then being a first time mom is a transition in itself and I can't tell you it was an easy time because it was not.

Beki: 27:32

Right. Well, that postpartum anxiety alone is a shift in a dynamic of being a new, first time mom and and being a first time mom. I don't have that personal experience, but I've seen a lot of my friends and family go through that first time and it's it's not what you expect. I've never actually heard anyone say you know what I feel like. I was so prepared for that baby to be in my life. That has never been a phrase I have ever heard, and maybe it's true for someone, but I have not met that person at this point. And so you are going through significant life changes where your first time mom, you're selecting not to go into a situation where you're recognizing you feel like people have been taking advantage of you and you choose not to do that. That's a big step as well. When you look back at that, what do you feel like you see about yourself that you really admire from back at that point in time and making that decision, what makes you proud? I guess.

Shannon: 28:48

I'm a strong person and I take risks when needed. And I also will say that I understand my value and I think for a long time I didn't. And that's the relationships that's professional, personal. I think that I didn't understand my value all the time, so I would get taken advantage of in multiple relationships. So I would get taken advantage of and in multiple relationships. But I think I'm pretty strong and my discernment and knowing what my worth is really showcased in that decision. And, again, like I didn't make it lightly, but I did feel at peace when I made it, so I feel like that was the right decision at the time.

Beki: 29:24

How do you think that that situation and that inflection point informed some of the choices that you've made in your career or in your life?

Shannon: 29:33

going forward from that point, yeah, so I am a workaholic, so to speak. It's kind of deep rooted in my millennial stage, right, but at this point I don't prioritize work. Work is something that's going to come and go Moments. Time with family is something that's not, and so I do my job. I don't do more than what my job requires me to do because I feel like the age I'm at it's not really doing what I need to do. I'm going to value my time. I'm not working all my paid time off. I'm going to enjoy my family, because the value is having that time with my son. The value is more than what a paycheck is, cause you can't take back those moments, you can't take back those missed times. And so any job that I take on, whether it's contract work, whether it's anything and sometimes I do get down the rabbit hole of like, oh my God, I have so much to do, I got to do it, but I I prioritize as much as I can because obviously I need to work to to pay pay bills.

Beki: 30:43

But the house and the room over the child exactly.

Shannon: 30:48

But right, I'm not gonna miss karate. I'm not gonna miss swimming, I'm not going to. I'm gonna take off for my birthday for my own self-care. So there's certain things that at this job I didn't really think about, like even talking about. Like if I want to have another child, like what's your leave? Like I want to. You know how do you value work-life balance? But I will say, the caveat with me is now I understand that I have to set the tone with my company or any place I'm at what my balance is, because if I don't, they'll railroad me right to doing all the things. They're not going to say no, if I work extra hours. They're not going to say don't come in early, right, exactly.

Beki: 31:34

Oh, don't come in early and don't stay late. And it's not that they're uncaring is what I'm hearing you say. And it's not that they're uncaring is what I'm hearing you say. It's just if you are willing to give me that and essentially donate your time to that, because I'm paying you for this accomplishment. If you want to give me more than that, then I am willing to take it, and I think that that is such a powerful thing for people to recognize in their lives. It's not rude, it's not unkind to say I don't have the capacity to take that on. Some people will feel like they're at risk of being fired if they say no to that next thing. If someone were to say that to you, what would you be wanting to tell them?

Shannon: 32:23

So in corporate, this is what I've learned in corporate, corporate structures right, they have milestones for you. But in order to get more money, in order to get more growth, you have to leave room for that growth. If they say there's a lot of companies that will say growth. If they say there's a lot of companies that will say you know tasks as needed to throw more tasks at you, that's totally fine, Right, but there comes a certain point. If your bandwidth is 40 hours a week and you work eight hours and you are very effective at the things that you do, that's all you have to do to grow.

Shannon: 32:57

When you do more, it doesn't guarantee you more. It doesn't guarantee you a promotion, because I learned through that Like it doesn't. All the extra stuff I was doing. They were great, they were grateful, but it didn't give me a promotion. It didn't give me a title change. It didn't necessarily give me more money, so it just gave me more things to do. So I'm going to do my job. If we want to have a conversation about growth opportunities and what that means, then for sure. But you're not going to incentivize me by giving me stuff to overwork me or have me feel like I need to do something. So I think it comes down to again the value and how you value your time. You could be effective at your job and be great and still grow without taking on so much that you're working hours that they didn't ask you to.

Beki: 33:43

Right. Yeah, and it makes me think about too, this idea of all these like little task kinds of things. And especially as you know you're trying to impress someone right. Look at all the volume I can handle and the thing that really stood out to me as you were describing that is just this whole idea of it's not actually the doing more things, it's that growth could actually be. How can I figure out a way to make this even more efficient so that I have time to do this more interesting.

Beki: 34:17

Next level up of something so it's not adding width Right. Level up of something, so it's not adding width right, it could be adding depth. And that just requires you to find ways to save time and be more efficient. And, like you said, that's where the value really gets. Proven is look, I'm able to do these things. I'm able to do them exceptionally well because I have figured out how to do it exceptionally well.

Beki: 34:44

And if you want me to do more than that, then let's talk about what that looks like as a package, and I don't mean that as a this for that kind of thing, because one of the things that you've also said I feel like many times in this conversation of it's not like it's a line that you just refuse to cross, it's just being aware of the fact that you're crossing that line and choosing to do it and choosing to step back over into your own value so that you're not abusing yourself, Like why would you do that?

Shannon: 35:18

Right, and I, just in general with anybody that I've talked to, you can do as much work as you want to. I am an efficiency queen. If we can make something more efficient, we're going to do it. That's kind of one of the things I'm known for. If I see something, I meticulously like how to make this easier, especially if it's 10 steps when it can be five, 10 steps when it can be five. And so for me, another thing I learned you asked me this earlier about communication it's always gonna be clear with my communication and my goal.

Shannon: 35:48

So when I got hired at this new position, I said I'm looking for growth opportunities, and I remember them saying this is a small company. I said, okay, but is there financial growth opportunities? Because there's ways to showcase value to your staff and showcase that there are growth potentials even if you're small. Even if you're large, there's ways to shift and maneuver on a company. Whether that be additional tasks, maybe that be a title and maybe you're reporting to something can be done as long as they're, you know, apt to shift and pivot the way they need to.

Shannon: 36:22

So I just have. Also, I'm not shy to have those open conversations. I'm blunt, as we said, so I will be very direct with what I want, so there's no confusion when I come to you and say, oh hey, we talked about this, there's no surprise. And that way, what happened in my previous position will never happen again, because you'll always be clear of where I stand and it won't be a thing of well. Maybe she'll do this instead of this and maybe, if we give her this, she'll stay for another two years. It's never going to be that.

Beki: 36:50

It's very cut and dry with me now them, which is really, really powerful. I could keep talking to you, as always, for a really long time here, and I guess one of the things that I'm wondering is whether or not there is a question. I didn't ask that you think it would be important for people to know about this time in your life.

Shannon: 37:16

I would just say for me the value of your time and taking your responsibility of that, because work-life balance again is something I think you could think any job has. But it's really your job to make sure that the balance comes through and setting clear boundaries and guidelines for any position you're in.

Beki: 37:36

Yeah, I think that's of the thing that really hits me in a way that I haven't heard it before. In all honesty, is that work-life balance, that whole trade-off or that whole integration of the things that are the most important to you? You can't count on someone else to set what looks like a balance for you.

Beki: 38:00

It's one of those things that you know, but you kind of go boom, there it went again inside your head when you hear someone else say something. And that's what really stands out is, if you don't design what that balance is, then you're actually leaving it to someone else to decide that for you. And that didn't work out so well for you, so now you've switched back to no, that's right, I'll be in charge of my balance now. And that's't work out so well for you, so now you've switched back to no, that's right, I'll be in charge of my balance now, and that's all good.

Shannon: 38:26

Do you think in this day and age that loyalty is beneficial for employees at companies or no?

Beki: 38:34

The first thing that I think of is loyalty to what or to whom, and one of the things that I hear a lot about is I love the people. The reason I stay in this awful employer is because I love the people who are around me, and loyalty to people is a really great thing and I think it's really vital in a strong culture in an organization. I struggle a little bit with the idea that loyalty to those people should keep you there.

Shannon: 39:09

I would agree because I think I loved, like I said, 95% of the people that I worked with. Right, there wasn't a big jump from that. I loved it. But I will say now, looking at it, current job and more it's company culture, that's the thing that I'm going to be loyal to, because I have to feel like I'm in an environment where I'm thriving or it's not going to be long term for me.

Beki: 39:38

Right, and you mentioned earlier that you're a millennial and I'm Gen X For me. I was raised with this idea of you work hard, keep your head down. I feel like.

Shannon: 39:49

I'm channeling my father right now.

Beki: 39:50

But you know it's the that. Just get the work done and muscle through and then, you know, cry on the way home. My father would not have recommended that whole cry on the way home thing, that that whole crying thing wasn't there. But I think that the loyalty really, when I hear about people being loyal to an employer, loyal to their colleagues, I think that's really a very sweet sentiment. I don't think it's always returned and I feel bad for people who are loyal to those animate, inanimate objects or people who just don't return that I think my child, that I want to be with and that is more valuable to me than any of these other roles that I now see would be available to me, and that is a decision point for you to say.

Beki: 40:56

You know what, like I choose me, I choose my child, I choose my life that I build going forward. Because there was a bit of this might be overstating it a little bit You're the better one to judge that but a little bit like a betrayal in a sense. Y'all told me you were going to give me something and then you didn't, and now that loyalty is breached and it's important to recognize when that loyalty is breached by the other side.

Shannon: 41:24

Exactly, and I will say during that time the older generation. So my mom thought I was nuts. She was like what are you talking about? You've been there seven years, you're fully vested, you have the retirement, et cetera, et cetera. Why are you doing this? You're fully vested, you have the retirement, et cetera, et cetera. Why are you doing this? You have a kid, and I will say there was a fear aspect of the unknown that I think really stops a lot of people from shifting, even though they're miserable at their job, because they don't know what the next step is, unknown is, and so they'd rather just know the devil that they are kind of messing with now than moving on to somewhere else because the grass isn't always greener.

Shannon: 42:13

You could have a, you could hate one part of your job, but overall like it to then go somewhere else and be just as miserable. So I I get that aspect of fear that some people will stay, because I don't think loyalty is always attached to you know the people. Sometimes I think it's a thing of fear of I don't know what's out there, so I'm just going to stick with what I know, even though it sucks.

Beki: 42:54

And so I just kind of my mom was like I don't, I can't believe it, but I was very much like no, I've had enough. And I think when you get to that in terms of you know I'm not encouraging everyone, it's just, but I'm done now. And that isn't a head thing, that's actually you and I'm imagining you felt this, that it's a visceral through the body. It's like this is just. I'm over this now, like we're not going to fight because there's nothing to fight about. I'm out.

Shannon: 43:40

Exactly, and I also think for me and my personality like I said, I'm a hard worker I wasn't going to be a hard worker, I was not going to show up as my best self, and so that was going to be a detriment to me, more so than it was going to be to anybody else, because I may have a reason to fire me. So I kind of took it like I don't have any more to give. I've given all. So, yes, it was a sense of betrayal, but again, like I said, there's pros and cons anywhere. So there is no perfect job. There's no perfect. There's going to be, you know, things you don't like about everywhere you go. So I would agree with you that you have to weigh the balances. So please don't think I'm telling you to quit your job. But I think when you know, you know it's in your body Like it's not something where you're like I hate it today so I'm going to quit. I don't recommend that for anybody. I think it's a long-term kind of understanding of where you are in the company.

Beki: 44:33

And in fact one of the pieces of advice I recall giving to a client of mine, because they had decided they wanted to quit and I said then, quit on a good day.

Beki: 44:43

And she was like I might be employed forever, but you know, like OK, right, we're talking relative terms, right, like. But I think that if you're able to hand over that resignation letter on a day that was above average in terms of your days there, that's a day when you mean it. That's not an emotional reaction, that's emotional decision, and emotion does play a role in these things. And it makes me think about you saying you know, I wouldn't have worked as hard, you would have started judging yourself for that. And there's this whole piece of if I continue to work here, am I going to continue to feel respect for myself? And that's part of that decision-making equation that I do think is really important.

Beki: 45:36

And also, yeah, you might have rent or a mortgage, you might have a car payment, you might have school for your kids and being able to have them enjoy and participate in all the things that they want to participate in. And where is that line? And that, to me, is the balance. The balance is what is the exchange that you're willing to give so you might have loyalty to your family, you might have loyalty for yourself? Yes, absolutely, all my hands applause on that. When it's blind loyalty to an organization, they don't have that for you, and you should always be in a positively reciprocal relationship in my mind.

Shannon: 46:22

Well said. But I also want to say, just from a fear perspective, I don't know if I would have had the same resolve because I had a severance package, so it was like my position was going away, so there was comfort in knowing that I wasn't walking out the door with zero dollars to my name. I had time to figure it out, so that was also something that gave me a little bit of resolve and not heart palpitations like my mom had.

Beki: 46:49

Yes, yes, and that does make a bit of a difference depending upon how much time that you can use that to bridge. I would 100% agree with that that quitting the job voluntarily without another thing to land on is a bigger risk than essentially driving your name to be on the layoff list, which is essentially what you did when you didn't apply for that role. As always, really having a great conversation with you today, and I just really want to show all my appreciation for the fact that you've joined me on the podcast today. Thanks so much, shannon. I know that the listeners will gain a lot from our conversation today. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.