SPEAKER_02: 0:00

And so after I saw him go through all of that firsthand, I realized that I didn't want to have any regrets with any decisions that I made in my life. And when I started thinking about my career through that lens, I realized if I never explored my capacity to write, I would regret that. Even if I had a good career in IT or software that turned out really well, there would always be that what if, you know. And so I was like, you know what? I'm 22, I'm single, don't have a family to take care of. I'm in the perfect place to go on an adventure with my career to see where things turn out.

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. Today my guest is Holden Galusha. He is someone who is already growing his voice in science journalism. Holden started out as a freelance contributor, and it didn't take long for him to stand out with his special mix of technical know-how and real storytelling. With a foundation in web and computer programming from Rhodes State College, Holden brings sharp insight into fast-moving topics like lab software, cybersecurity, and artificial intelligence. Last year, he earned national recognition as one of only three journalists across the U.S. to receive the Young Leaders Scholarship from the American Society of Business Publication Editors. Holden, I'm so glad to have you here. Let's uh jump right into our conversation, if that's all right with you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32

Sure thing. Thanks for having me, Becky.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34

Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. And you know, what we're talking about today is inflection points and really those choices and options that we have, and then suddenly we go, I choose this direction. So where I'd love to start is just that inflection point for you. Do you mind giving us kind of a high level of the decision that you were making at that point in time?

SPEAKER_02: 1:58

Sure. So when I was in high school, um I decided to go to college for web and computer programming at a community college on the other side of town. And the reason I went there is because uh I'd always been interested in computers for one, and so it seemed like a natural fit. And two, I grew up around a lot of job and financial instability. So at the time the software field was seemed like a no-brainer. People were getting six-figure offers left and right, so I figured I'd go for that. Um, halfway through my degree, my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and he passed away after about six months. And after he passed away, I thought to myself, you know, none of us knows how much time we all have left. I'd like to at least try pursuing my dream job of writing and journalism. And so I uh I transitioned into doing that as a freelancer, and uh here we are today.

SPEAKER_00: 2:53

Yeah, that sounds like a big decision. I'm I'm pretty excited to kind of get into what made you really find that within yourself to pursue that direction. But before I, you know, satisfy me with the end of the story, let's go kind of back into it earlier. And certainly that idea of computer programming, the security that that brings. Talk to me a little bit more about what was happening for you from that high school into university experience.

SPEAKER_02: 3:23

So I would say that the key word I would use to describe how I felt at the time was stifled. I had always had this inherent interest in writing, and I'd always been a voracious reader. I read all the time as a kid, I loved books, but at the time I just didn't see it in the cards for me to ever become a writer in any professional capacity because you know, starving artist is a trope, right? Right, I didn't want to be that guy, and so I was like, you know, I I enjoy computers, I like solving puzzles. It seems like a good intersection of what the market wants and what I enjoy. And but undeniably, I was stifling the creative side of myself that just wanted to write stories and articles and do research. I even had friends comment on it. Uh, I recall one time in high school, a friend of mine said, Holden, you clearly enjoy writing more than you do programming, you should just go for that. I was like, whatever. And then a few weeks later, my English teacher called me to her desk after class and she was like, You know, you seem to have like a talent with words, you should explore that. And I was like, For what? No money. So yeah, that was I felt stifled, but I wouldn't admit it to myself.

SPEAKER_00: 4:34

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting how many other people who were close to you in some way, shape, or form were gently saying to you, hey, so um, Holden, it feels like this isn't complete for you. What is it that you think at that time, you know, other than being a teenager, let's be honest, right? Like that's part of it. But what other aspects were keeping you from truly hearing what they were saying at that time?

SPEAKER_02: 5:01

Fear. Uh, like I said, I grew up with a lot of financial and job instability in my household. Uh, my dad was out of work for a few years. We lost our house in the recession. It was a really painful time for my family. And so seeing how that affected him, I was telling myself, I can never let myself be in that same situation. And my best bet to hedge that risk is programming.

SPEAKER_00: 5:24

Yeah. Well, and that makes sense, right? Losing your home is a really traumatic kind of experience, particularly as a child when you have zero control over that. Many of us are actually just a paycheck away from that kind of circumstance. And so it really is a risky kind of scenario for many of us, even today, right? Not just when you were a teenager experiencing that or a child experiencing that in your home. And when you think about that desire for security and that fear of losing it, where else do you think that that was showing up in your career decision?

SPEAKER_02: 6:05

I wouldn't say necessarily showed up in a decision besides that, but it certainly manifested in other ways that I thought about my career. So I constantly had a like severe case of imposter syndrome. And the slightest thing would happen. Like my boss would call me in to have a meeting with him in his office, and I was like, This is it. I'm getting canned. I haven't done anything to get canned, but I am. And I'll go in there and he would just ask me like a very basic question, like if I wanted to grab lunch or something. And this persisted for like six years, and so that was the main thing. Like I always thought I was on the verge of losing my job.

SPEAKER_00: 6:41

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds as though you were just highly aware of the risk of that happening. Oh, yeah. And so the fact that it was just an invitation to lunch, you hadn't done anything wrong, there was no risk, your product was great. Yeah, that doesn't matter because we're just all just one step away, one invitation to the you know, the boss's office before we get fired. And it is amazing to me as you know, former HR, all that kind of thing, how many people and true, you know, we're at will states mostly within the United States and everything like that. And at the same time, that termination doesn't usually happen just on a dime, right? There's usually some sort of indication that comes through, and yet naturally that carried through for you of I need to be in a role that is hyper secure. I have to be in a situation where I'm doing really great work all the time because someone might knock on my door, my cubicle or my office, whatever it might be, right? And say, you know what, hold on, sorry, man, it's your last day.

SPEAKER_02: 7:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

And and those those threats are real, and yet what you're telling me is you made a decision at some point to kind of flip from that way of being over to another way of being. So talk to me what changed when your dad had cancer.

SPEAKER_02: 8:03

So my dad's uh cancer journey was very, very short. He got diagnosed in June and was gone by early February of the next year. Sorry. And uh seeing that happen, and he previously he had been very healthy, like the guy would bike 40 miles a day and ate he ate very well. He had just lost like uh, I think a hundred pounds in the last year or something like that. Like he was turning his life around and becoming very, very healthy, and then this diagnosis comes out of nowhere and just takes him very quickly. And so after I saw him go through all of that firsthand, I realized that I didn't want to have any regrets with any decisions that I made in my life. And when I started thinking about my career through that lens, I realized if I never explored my capacity to write, I would regret that. Even if I had a good career in IT or software that turned out really well, there would always be that what if, you know? And so I was like, you know what? I'm 22, I'm single, don't have a family to take care of. I'm in the perfect place to go on an adventure with my career and just see where things turn out, even if it means sacrificing a job in programming for the time being. And so I guess my dad's death was the catalyst that made me realize that there is more to life than just financial security, and I should be chasing that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:25

Yeah, not just money. And yet there's a a deeper fulfillment, deeper enrichment that we can get from our work beyond the financial support that it gives us and and the confidence that we have to feed ourselves, feed our families when we, you know, when we have that responsibility and and keep a roof over our heads to some extent. And at the same time that all of that was happening, it feels like it wasn't necessarily just a switch that flipped. I'm imagining that there were a couple of moments that occurred. What were a couple of the standout ones in your mind?

SPEAKER_02: 10:02

The first one occurred when I realized that there was an existing opportunity at my job to start writing professionally in some capacity. So I worked for a small company that sold used laboratory equipment. And it was a small company. I think we had 20 employees top at our largest. And so mostly I did IT and programming stuff and then like some marketing stuff whenever we needed it. And I was like, you know what? We have a blog function on our website that no one's using. I have some free time throughout the week. I'm just going to start doing content marketing. Content marketing is producing educational content that ultimately serves the purpose of marketing your brand and establishing your company as an authority in that space. And so I just made up a content calendar and started writing articles that I thought would be helpful to our customers. And uh, we had technicians on staff that I interviewed. I bought a like a recorder and I started teaching myself all of the fundamental skills that a journalist need: interviewing, doing content audits, figuring out the right way to frame an article so it is both unique and useful. Because you can write useful stuff that's been covered a million times over. No one wants to read that. And so finding out how to find that intersection was really valuable. And so, yeah, once I realized that I had an existing opportunity and I wouldn't immediately have to take a risk and try to get a full-time writing job, that really opened up the door for me.

SPEAKER_00: 11:29

Absolutely, because to say, hi, I'm a computer programmer on my resume, but I'd really love to write for you. It might, it might on the surface look like a really tough sell. And in fact, what you were able to do, it seems like, is to really leverage all of that technical knowledge and that capability tied in with all of your writing skills to be able to say, wow, these two things go together in a really powerful sort of way.

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

Yeah, exactly. I've I do have a certain level of technical aptitude that I enjoy exploring through my programming and analyzing lab equipment, writing articles about it, engage that technical aptitude in the writing process. So it was like fulfilling in both of those ways.

SPEAKER_00: 12:14

Right, absolutely. And and also, by the way, can help you earn a living.

SPEAKER_02: 12:20

Exactly. Right?

SPEAKER_00: 12:21

There is that financial security that so you were able to bridge the gap within that current role. How did the company respond when you came up with the idea to do content marketing through blog?

SPEAKER_02: 12:33

Um, my boss at the time didn't really care at first. He was like, hey, if that's what you want to do to be happy at your job, I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't interfere with anything else you do. I was like, Yeah, that's fair. And then once I started publishing, he got more enthused by it because he saw it was bringing in traffic and uh people were starting to recognize our expertise in the space because we had brilliant technicians who repaired all the equipment and were experts in it, and they had so much insight that was just going untapped in terms of like building our brand's reputation. And so once he saw that I was able to tap into that insight and articulate it through these articles, he got a lot more enthusiasm and then he started writing them as well. There was one more story that I wanted to tell you about people like recognizing my penchant for writing before I did. So back when I was in high school again, I was in my bedroom programming something, I think it was for my church, like a freelance project, and I was showing it to my dad, and this was a few years before he had his cancer diagnosis, and he sits there and he watches and he's asking good questions as I explain the logic of the code and how it works. And then I finish up my seminar and he leans back and he's like, This is really cool, and I'm glad you enjoy it. But dude, you're gonna be a professional writer someday. And I was I was just kind of confused by that because he had never said that before. Like he always encouraged me to pursue writing just as a hobby, but he had never said that specifically, so then he just walked out and never brought it up again. So I don't know that I think that was another major catalyst. I was like, okay, if my dad is willing to be that blunt with me, maybe there is something here.

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

Yeah, yeah. Definitely calling it as he saw it in that moment and just saying, Yeah, this is a great hobby for you. You know, this thing that you want to build as your career, that's a great hobby, but your work will really be this over here.

SPEAKER_02: 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:22

One of the things as we think about this transition for you and this history of people recognizing this truth about you that you would become a writer in later years. What was your writing experience when you were in high school and up until this decision was made?

SPEAKER_02: 14:44

So there wasn't much. It was obviously had never been published or anything, but I had always dabbled in blogging, that sort of thing. And so I was really cool and popular in high school. And you can tell because I wrote reviews of Linux operating systems.

SPEAKER_00: 15:01

So with all the coolest kids do.

SPEAKER_02: 15:04

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I had a lot of friends, as you might imagine. And uh, that was really where I got my start with like the technical aspect of writing because I was trying out these operating systems for servers and different types of computers. I was like, you know, there's I feel like I'm gathering some insight here that could be useful to someone. And so I just wrote them and then stored them in Google Drive. I never published them anywhere. And then in high school itself, I uh was very lucky to have a teacher who really emphasized writing as part of her curriculum. So I wrote a lot of essays and research papers and creative short fiction in her class, and that really helped me hone my skill because she was a pretty ruthless editor too.

SPEAKER_00: 15:38

Okay, okay. Yeah. And, you know, I know we weren't in high school at the same time. I think that's pretty clear. However, one of the things that it makes me think about is you totally would have been one of my friends when I was in high school writing about stuff like that. Um, those were those were really kind of my key folks that I like to hang around with. So I bet that isn't really surprising to you either. Um, hey, let's talk about all the technical kind of stuff going on. Let's totally geek out on it. Um Yeah, and I can't help but really recognize that, you know, earlier you're sharing these stories about friends, you know, teachers, advisors, and and your dad coming to you and saying, Oh, but you'll be a writer, and all of that. So now you're in this situation where you are writing through your own initiative, saying, Hey, I can really do this, but making enough of a difference that you're able to get not only yourself doing that, but your boss is starting to write some of those things as well. What was the next shift that got you deeper into writing?

SPEAKER_02: 16:45

So once I had built up a certain baseline of skill at writing and interviewing at my job, I started thinking of ways that I could capitalize on that and maybe turn it into a full-time job elsewhere. So what I started doing was finding science journalists on LinkedIn and just cold emailing them saying, Hey, I'm 20, I want your job, how can I get it? And I had some really great conversations and uh I got some good insight, none of them really panned out into anything. And then one day I'm walking through the office at work, the used equipment dealer where I still was working, and I see an issue of a magazine called Lab Manager sitting on the break room table. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So I pick it up and start leafing through it, and I realize that the articles in this magazine were exactly what I had been writing for the company for the past year. So I'm like, oh, this is this is great. Maybe I could write for them. So I flip to the masthead in the front of the magazine, find the managing editor's name, track her down on LinkedIn, and I send her a message like, hey, you have a really cool job. I kind of work in your space. Can we have just like an informal phone call so I can learn from you? She's like, Yeah, that sounds great. And so uh Lauren and I had that phone call, and at the end of or a few weeks later, she contacted me and said, Hey, we're looking for freelancers. Do you want to contribute to the magazine? So I was like, Yes, obviously. And so that was that was how I got my first story published was Lauren kind of threw me a bone, even though she knew that I had no professional publishing experience, just these articles I've been writing on the side.

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

And yet they also have the um the staff, the resources to help edit and really support you in that process as you're doing the freelance piece of things as well. And one of the things that stands out about that is the initiative that you took to say, hey, there are people out here who do this and they make a living. So really tied back to that whole, I need to make this a secure way for me to be uh employed, right? Yeah. Um, one, the financial piece of it, but also two, the the security and the ongoing nature of the kind of work. And what was it like? You said before you reached out to lab manager, maybe there was maybe a cool response sometimes, not always that warm and inclusive kind of approach to things. What was your reaction to those met or those lack of messages or those maybe cooler messages in response to your inquiry?

SPEAKER_02: 19:18

So some of the people I talked to actually were pretty enthusiastic, but I could tell once I talked to them that they still weren't doing what it was I wanted to do. The thing was at the time I wasn't sure what I wanted to do because uh I didn't know that this magazine existed. I didn't re I wasn't familiar with trade publishing as an industry. I didn't know magazines could get so specific like I was getting with my articles for such a narrow audience. And so I was kind of just I don't know, just like searching through the darkness, I guess you could say, trying to find something that resonated. And I could tell I was there were signals here and there that I was getting closer, but I didn't find something that really felt like it would be a good fit until I found Lab Manager. So I had good conversations, but none of them really resonated.

SPEAKER_00: 20:05

Well, and it sounds like it's this pull a thread and keep on pulling the next thread that you see as you went through it. Yeah. Yeah. And when you think about where you are now, right? Last year, getting recognition, being in a role, feeling presumably, you know, like in a spot of, hey, this is really a great place to be. I'm enjoying the writing that I do because I know that you do. What's different today about your perspective about that whole, you know, starving artist kind of thing, um, versus what it looked like before?

SPEAKER_02: 20:44

I have like three different answers to that. So give me all three. Oh good.

SPEAKER_00: 20:47

Give me all three.

SPEAKER_02: 20:48

Um the first thought is that the starving artist stereotype, from what I've come to learn just through my own experiences, it's a result of people having being too committed to one manifestation of their goal. So when I wanted to be a writer, I didn't specifically want to write Hollywood blockbuster scripts. I didn't specifically want to write fiction, I just wanted to write something that was helpful. And that ended up manifesting in a very specific niche that admittedly on paper sounds kind of boring, but I'm a technical guy as it is, so I enjoy it, and I have an audience of people who enjoy reading it. So for me, that was enough. Um, I've I've met people and and I have some friends who have more like artistic inclinations as well, and have struggled because they are committed to a very specific idea of what their career should look like, and they're not open to alternatives that might be more in tune with what the market needs. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 21:52

Yes, absolutely. And arguably from my perspective, even spans to other sorts of industries and career functions that are out there. Exactly. When we're so singularly focused and we have a single goal in mind, you it it's a different path. It's not an impossible path, but it is a different path from in general, this is the direction I want to go, and I can feel my way into what works the best for me. And it also creates space, and I'd be interested in your view on this. It creates space that when it's no longer your thing, and you're not writing here, you're looking for somewhere else to write, that that shift becomes a little bit easier, maybe as well. Part of the switch with something like that is when you're a little bit more open and fluid about your end goal in the first instance, when that goal has run its course, how is it different when you're shifting onto that next stage where maybe it's also a little bit ambiguous?

SPEAKER_02: 23:01

I think you have a better sense of what is economically viable or viable for your career because again, you've already shown that you're okay with a certain amount of uncertainty in finding the next goal. And so if you can step back into that mind into that mindset and be okay with a little bit of ambiguity as you pull on different threads and see what comes up, that'll give you a lot of flexibility to pivot as opportunities come and to recognize those opportunities. If you once again, if you get laser focused on one manifestation of fulfilling your dream, you are naturally limiting the opportunities for it to come to pass.

SPEAKER_00: 23:41

Absolutely. I I I think and it opens more doors, gives you more choice, and at the same time, I have known people, and it sounds like you two who are singularly focused. This is where I'm headed. There is no there is no other option. It is this or nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:00

And if you have that mindset, luck is a much larger factor in your success than if you're willing to pivot.

SPEAKER_00: 24:05

Absolutely. And the grind is different during that kind of process as well. Yeah. So you said you had a couple of things that popped into your head when I asked you about where you are now compared to what you were thinking before. What else came to your mind?

SPEAKER_02: 24:22

The other thing that came to mind is that the goalposts constantly shift, and maybe it's just me, but I'm never fully satisfied. And so if I were to like to tell 19-year-old Holden what he's accomplished, he'd be pretty stoked. I think that was he'd think it was cool. But now when I look at it, I'm like, there's so many ways I can improve, and there's so many more things I could achieve. And it's like I'm I don't think that anyone will ever be fully satisfied with what they accomplished. There's always going to be a goalpost to shift and another way to move forward. And there's, you know, that's a blessing and a curse.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

Yeah. Describe the blessing to me.

SPEAKER_02: 25:00

The blessing is that you don't stagnate as an individual and you always have some sense of meaning propelling you forward. The curse is that, I mean, obviously you're kind of stressing yourself out, always trying to reach the next level, whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

Right, right. And it and it comes back to that phrase you used before as well, in terms of that imposter syndrome. That if they really knew what I was doing and what I wasn't doing, you know, would they really think the same of me if they only knew? Yeah. And arguably, they'd still be pretty stoked. Yeah, right? Like I mean, it's like you're you're still not getting that knock on the door. When your boss is calling you, you're still getting the, hey, would you like to grab launch or would you like to chat? Right. So it it it does become a choice in terms of whether or not we want to go with the blessing or the curse, because both of them are sort of what we see in that moment anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 26:00

Yeah, I agree with that entirely. I like framing as a choice the way you did. I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:05

Yeah, you find that I frame a lot of things as a choice because I'm like, we're making up our lives as we go along on the regular, because you know, even this conversation, your perception versus mine is different, and in reality, it's the same conversation. So I'm always of the mind that if you don't like the made-up story you have, make up a new one because they're equally as likely to be true.

SPEAKER_01: 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:28

And I get a lot of side eye when I talk like that, as you might imagine. And at the same time, I really do believe that it is the lens that we use of judgment versus openness in virtually any situation that can change how we feel in a given circumstance.

SPEAKER_02: 26:46

Yeah, I agree with that. I think, and to add on to that, one thing I've learned is to approach situations with no specific expectations. That helps I mean that helps me a lot. Like if I have a job interview or something, I don't try to think about how I did or how the interview might go. I don't really prep, I just kind of go in blind. And I find that it helps. Like I've done fully prepped interviews before and they just were awful. And then I just kind of wandered in, had no idea where I was, and they went great.

SPEAKER_00: 27:16

Exactly. Know a little bit about the employer, maybe, and you like don't use the wrong company name, that kind of thing. Yeah. And at the same time, when you're just comfortable being you and walking in with the stories you know about yourself, then it becomes easier to view it as a conversation. Because one of the key things is that especially you mentioned job interview, they're interviewing you, but by all means you should be interviewing them as well.

SPEAKER_02: 27:42

100%.

SPEAKER_00: 27:43

Being able to have that as an exchange and as a conversation changes how you feel when you walk in there, I think. And that's so important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:52

It's like it's like it levels the playing field and makes them seem less intimidating, and then you come off as more confident.

SPEAKER_00: 27:57

Yeah, yeah. I have some power too. Right? And you're not lying to yourself. You actually do because they can offer you a position and you can still say, Yeah, you know, that's really great for someone else. Yep. You know, and I'm even happy if I know someone, I'll I'll send them that way. But that's a role for someone else. When you think about a version of you that might have remained stifled and continued along that technical path. What's the thing that you would miss the most about the path that you actually took?

SPEAKER_02: 28:34

Creative freedom would be the first one. And the second one would be producing a tangible product that helps people. So a lot of programming work and IT work really in general, a lot of it is just maintaining systems that never see the light of day and are very ephemeral in nature. Like the code you write will be updated by someone else three years from now, and no one really ever saw the code anyway. You weren't that passionate when you wrote it because it was just to like you had so many constraints on your time and on your code that you couldn't put the the the tweaks on it that you wanted to. And so to I my personality, I would find that very unfulfilling, I think, because I like producing tangible things that I can show people and share with the world, and so I think that's that's what I would miss most, is being able to share my work directly.

SPEAKER_00: 29:25

Yeah. So if I were to translate that and go the other direction, what does it feel like for you to have your writing out in the world right now?

SPEAKER_02: 29:36

Uh despite what I just said, I try not to think about it. So I've never really been one to like sit at our traffic dashboards and look at the minutia of who's reading my articles and who's not. I just kind of write what my gut tells me would be useful and has some SEO backing behind it, and then I just write it and go on with my day. It's for me the the conversation. Creative production itself is more satisfying than just getting eyes on it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 30:06

Absolutely. That I I can appreciate that 100%. And one of the things that it makes me think about is when I had published my book, one of the things that someone had shared with me was, wow, this'll this'll live past you, right? Like and and I I kind of sat with that thinking, well, that's kind of cool, right? Because I I don't have children and won't. And so I think about that as, you know, I hesitate to call my book my baby, like I can't go that far. And at the same time, I don't call the magazine my baby either. Good. I'm really comforted to hear that. Um I have at least one other person who views that in the same way. And yet that creative characterization of I created this thing, and for those who can enjoy it, it's out there waiting for them whenever they want to be looking at it. And you aren't in a spot where you're like watching the dashboard making sure that 50 people saw it today. But at the same time, it's out there and it's something tangible that you've created in service to other people, it seems.

SPEAKER_02: 31:14

Yeah, actually, that does bring something to mind that I've thought about. So if you don't mind me going on a rabbit trail.

SPEAKER_00: 31:20

Yeah, yeah, of course. I love them.

SPEAKER_02: 31:23

I think one motivator that I have for writing as much as I do is the fact that my dad, he was also a writer, but he didn't keep a lot of what he wrote. He threw a lot of it away because he didn't want the world to see it, and I really wish I had that. Yeah. And so I feel like maybe part of my subconscious motivations are that I want to leave something behind for when I'm gone for my kids to enjoy.

SPEAKER_00: 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:48

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 31:49

No, I love that. I absolutely love that. If if your dad were here today listening to us have this conversation, and of course we can only know him as you knew him. You know, what do you think he would say to you, knowing that his his vision was absolutely on point where you did become that writer that he predicted?

SPEAKER_02: 32:15

He would absolutely glow and tell me, like, I told you so. And then he would give me a pat on the back and say, like, good job, kid.

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

So Yeah, that's that's really amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:24

He would also get defensive about the fact they threw away his own writing.

SPEAKER_00: 32:30

What do you think he would say about that now?

SPEAKER_02: 32:33

Honestly, I don't know. It's it's uh it's hard to know because he didn't he threw most of it away before I was even born and he didn't talk about it much. And so I think he just had some insecurities and he needed to address. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 32:48

Okay, yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's just um we create it for ourselves, not to be shared with others. I know there was a lot of there was a lot of writing that I did in my early years that I'm absolutely grateful that no one will ever, ever see, right? And some that I'm still putting in a h hidden little box back in the corner that, you know, someday if someone reads it, I'll just like be sitting bright red in a corner and they'll be fine. Um but yeah, and I I wonder too, you know, as you think about where you are, think about your career going forward, and talking especially about, you know, moving those goalposts as you were talking about before, what is what is one of the big challenges that you would offer to yourself as your career goes forward at this point?

SPEAKER_02: 33:35

It's hard to say. I have a few conflicting goals, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 33:39

Part of me wants to find a role at some point or create a role for myself where I am joining my technical aptitude with my writing experience more closely than I currently am. So I've realized that while I enjoy helping people through my writing, in order for it to be broadly applicable, it's kind of a 10,000-foot view of situations where I'm giving people advice on in my articles. I want to be able to help people more directly. And so maybe there is maybe a role like that exists where I can use my writing to help laboratories directly and have like tailored solutions rather than you know sending these articles out that could apply to any lab on earth.

SPEAKER_00: 34:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 34:21

But I don't know if that role exists, what it would look like, or even if I would enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00: 34:26

Yeah, but a deeper niche really into that space where it's really a little bit more targeted towards specific incidences, which makes me feel like in addition to the creative, there's still that problem solver that wants to come out and play with the puzzles a little bit more directly rather than watching other people assemble it from you know 10 feet away, kind of thing. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

Yeah, exactly. One of the companies that we work with at Lab Manager, it's a custom software development company that specializes on producing software for labs. And I love talking to their team because I can really get in the nitty-gritty of like real-world scenarios that they've encountered. And I'm kind of insulated from that because, like I said, everything I write has to be somewhat low, low resolution in order to appeal to more people. So it's uh working for a company like that, maybe sometime, who knows when, that would be really great.

SPEAKER_00: 35:20

Yeah. And just that opportunity to really get more selective about what you're writing, where your focus is, and being able to have that kind of directive with it. How does the introduction of AI, other technologies, and the impact that it has on journalism and other industries? I mean, what is the effect that it's had on you, your writing, and the future that you see in writing right now?

SPEAKER_02: 35:50

I think when it comes to generative AI, people really like to take hard stances at either extreme. Either they're pro-tech, and writers are going to be obsolete because why would you write when an LLM can do it? That is the tech bro side that I see. And then there is the old school journalist side that I also see. And these are the people who say that they're proud to be Luddites, things like that, and that nothing can replace a human. And I think that these are two extremes and both of them have merit. But most newsrooms and magazines and publications will be they'll exist somewhere in the middle, and so every magazine is going to have to ask some really hard questions about the ethics of using AI and what ethical usage looks like for them. And so, in my instance, I actually struggle with that for quite a bit. Actually, it's been a big topic of discussion at our newsroom. How should we use it? And, you know what the the ethics that I have in place, I've talked to my coworkers about, they have slightly different ethics, but they generally all align with our company's overall AI usage policy, and so we just respect each other to use it in different ways. Does that make sense? And as for the replacement, I mean, we could all be replaced. I don't know. Uh, if we were, then we would just pivot to doing something else, I guess. So I guess it's a good thing I have that programming backup until AI replaces that too. I don't know. I've always joked that I wanted to like be an old style like milkman or a newspaper delivery man or something. Like, you know, it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:30

Well, you know, there are future chapters for you, right? Like there's no end to the the new creations that you might find where market meets passion and you would have that opportunity to to create that path going forward for yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 37:45

And yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 37:46

Yeah, and I hear some humor in what you're saying, but I'm also hearing the the seriousness of when technology comes knocking, it's worthwhile to pay attention to not only what can it actually do, but what is ethical for us to actually use it to do.

SPEAKER_02: 38:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 38:06

And what is what is the game changer that it may or may not be for us in this organization, in this industry, or in this world, wherever you choose to kind of get your philosophy nailed down. And kudos to your organization for having a usage policy around it. I think that that's a very challenging thing for a lot of organizations right now.

SPEAKER_02: 38:30

Yeah, I mean it's it's unprecedented territory. Everyone was just kind of writing these policies into the dark and seeing where they end up. And they might have to iterate on those policies and refine them over the next few years as the tech advances and as uh people's responses to AI advance. Because one thing I've noticed is that, and I observe this in myself as well, when I am reading something and it dawns on me that what I'm reading is probably AI generated, I suddenly am much less interested in finishing it, even if I was getting something out of it before. It's like it's a knee-jerk reaction. I didn't condition myself to respond that way, but I've talked to a lot of people who report the same thing, and then I've talked to people who don't care either way, as long as the information is useful. And so I think over the next few years, newsrooms will have to really keep their finger on the pulse of the reactions towards AI, because if more people are starting to react the way I do, where they kind of have an aversion to reading it, then they'll still need human writers. If more people are accepting of it, then writers will need to adapt to using AI more.

SPEAKER_00: 39:35

Absolutely. And and when you were talking about the shift in the nature of technology, this ages me quite a bit, maybe. But I remember when streaming music originally, and I was in human resources at the time, when like Napster came out, and people were downloading music off from Napster, and there was this whole debate. Yeah, exactly. There was this whole debate over what's right, what's not right, and all of that. And now streaming is the norm. And so a lot of these things I think go through their incubation period, they go through their growth cycle, and either they go away or they become just part of what is, and we find our way to integrate that into how we operate. And exactly. And so we'll just have to see what the path for for all of this is, and uh and we'll kind of check it out. Yeah. So we talked about what you would say to 19-year-old Holden. What would you say to people who are kind of juggling that fear of if I go this way, will I be able to financially support myself and provide the security for myself? What's the advice or what are the questions that you would ask them to help them choose correctly for them?

SPEAKER_02: 41:00

I think they're like with any decision, you have to do a risk analysis. So, you know, I'm married now, I have a widowed mom to support as well. If I were to try to make the same move today in my current circumstances, I don't think I would have. And I don't think that I would have regretted not doing that. I think I would have been fine staying with programming because there's just a lot more at risk than when you're a 22-year-old bachelor who only has to pay for his own rent. So um, I think that doing a risk analysis is essential. And then if you do feel that you can tolerate the risk that would come with making that move, you have to ask yourself how important it really is to you. And a good way to frame that for me has always been how will I look back on my life if I don't do this, and how will I look back if I take a chance and I do do it? And if you have a sense that you're going to regret never trying, I'd say listen to that and follow that signal.

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

Yeah. Thank you for that. I think that that's really powerful and and really recognizing that that idea of a risk analysis is critical. And it's not to identify those risks in order to be excusing yourself from taking a chance, but more along the lines of seeking the balance of what are all of the factors and and how do they all fit together. So it's not even a pros and cons because I'm tend to be actively opposed to that because it usually creates inaction.

SPEAKER_01: 42:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

Because often what we do is we're inclined to create pros lists that equals cons list in terms of length. And then it's like, well, now I mean, what am I going to do? Exactly. And but if we can figure out, well, what are the risks that I could mitigate and how might I mitigate them? Or what else would it be that I could do that would soften the edge of maybe that regret that I would have, it helps us find a little bit like the journey you took of pulling the thread and finding the way to get the most happiness out of the direction that we choose. Because there's happiness out there in a variety of different ways. You just described that with your journey in our conversation today. And I I really appreciate that. I appreciate that perspective in understanding of, yeah, so I started out this way and you know, zigzag, loop, zigzag, loop, and then we kind of get to where I am and we'll zigzag loop going forward as well. I'm curious, you know, is there anything else that we didn't talk about that is really important in your heart to discuss or any questions that you would have for me?

SPEAKER_02: 43:41

Um going kind of going back to the previous question about what I would say to people who are facing the same decision I did, I did want to reiterate once more that an important component is being open to paths that the future can hold and different opportunities and learning to recognize opportunities. Because again, if you're married to a very specific vision, that's fine. But you have to also accept that there's a higher chance, the more specific it is, the higher the chances it will never come to pass. And so if you can generalize out and find the mechanisms that make your passion meaningful to you, if you can find those mechanisms in other areas of work, then that's where your opportunity lies.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

Yeah, and it it makes really really think about the idea of we get that single focus and then we branch out a little bit to say, if not that, then what? Right? Like would that feel like failure if we didn't get that thing? Because that's a bit of a risk, right?

SPEAKER_01: 44:44

For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 44:44

And then the other side of it really that I like to think about too is if I were to get that, whatever that magical thing would be in that career moment, what would that give me? And I think that a lot of times when we start thinking about it in that way, we start realizing it's not the thing, it's what it gives us that actually really matters, and it can really soften that idea of, but I failed because I didn't do that thing.

SPEAKER_02: 45:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:15

Right. But did you get the thing that you wanted?

SPEAKER_02: 45:17

Yeah, exactly. When I was younger, I wasn't like I wasn't a poor student, but I wasn't the greatest either. I kind of sucked at math a lot, and so there was always a voice in my head growing up that was like, I just wasn't competent and I wasn't going to be able to do anything that useful because I wasn't that I just didn't have the brains to. And so working in the field I do now where I can help people with my advice, that it feels like it's kind of addressing that insecurity I had growing up. And when I really dig into it, I think that was one of the underlying motivators that got me into writing was like I wanted to find some way to validate my competence, and that was how it expressed itself. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 45:57

Yes, absolutely it does. And I guess I always think about the other side of that equation too. So you feel like it validates your competence. What is it that you think your writing does for the reader?

SPEAKER_02: 46:10

I think it helps them make practical business decisions. If we're talking strictly about my the magazine I work for.

SPEAKER_00: 46:17

Okay. Okay. And so just to play my game a little bit, when they make those better business decisions, what does that get them?

SPEAKER_02: 46:27

A more efficient laboratory and it makes them look better.

SPEAKER_01: 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:31

Yeah. And they get better results, I would imagine, as well, right? And what we definitely need from our labs is to have, you know, great protocols, break great, you know, mm uh efficiency and effectiveness so that they get the best results that all of us can benefit from as a result of that. So love the work that you're doing. Love that you made this decision because it seems like it really resonates for you even today. Well, I just want to let you know, Holden, it's always a pleasure to speak with you and know different on the podcast today. I'm certain that our listeners will learn a lot from what you've shared and hopefully prompts them to think about their own careers and the decisions that they've made as well. So thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_02: 47:12

Of course, I appreciate you having me.

SPEAKER_00: 47:14

Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.