SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Then I go at five o'clock in the morning, get on the train, and everybody's dressed in the same dark suit. Everybody's going to Grand Central Station. Everybody's doing and it was, I looked at it one day and I was like, I feel like we're cattle. I feel like we're just being pushed and into this little maze to go and do things. And I started thinking about that. And it was like, I don't want to be like that. I don't, I, I, I don't, I don't want to be the person that that forces that on people.

SPEAKER_01: 0:28

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. Today's guest is Jose Bordetas, a veteran customer experience and support leader with over two decades of building and transforming global teams. Jose's journey is anything but ordinary, from the military to the boardroom, from the heat of restaurant kitchens to leading world-class customer success organizations across tech and SaaS. He's built a reputation for turning struggling operations into thriving, customer-obsessed cultures, all driven by his people-first approach to leadership. Currently serving as a customer success manager at ADP, Jose partners with enterprise clients across the Americas to unlock value through trust, strategy, and authentic collaboration. He's also the author of the upcoming book, Breaking from the Herd, where he shares lessons from a life of learning, leading, and asking one powerful question. What can I do better today? I'm so happy to have you here today, Jose. Thanks for coming to the mic.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41

Becky, thank you so much for having me. I truly appreciate this. We go back a little bit. We do. Folks might not know that, uh, but we do go back a bit. And uh I thank you. I appreciate you uh having me here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51

Yes. And I know that you have a really interesting career with a lot of curves and changes and all of those things, but we'll be talking about one of those impactful inflection points in your life and in your career. And so where I'd love to just start is to get the thumbnail version, right? Like what was that inflection point in your life that we'll be focusing in on today?

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

Actually, the the one inflection point was the birth of my daughter. Uh that's when I uh came to terms with the fact that it was no longer about me. And uh, you know, that my ambitions, while I have them and I and I've still you know pursued them, uh, they had to be done in a different way. Um so I used to be working at a uh I was a recording engineer for a while. I was in the uh I was in the army and the military. And then I was a cook. I was a line cook, uh, I was a soon chef uh until I decided that uh, you know, that's it's a lot of fun. It's my passion. I still cook regularly, uh, but it it does it doesn't pay the bills. It's not what I wanted uh for my daughter, and that's where it all started.

SPEAKER_01: 2:56

Yeah, yeah. So when she was born, I mean, obviously you'd had these different career kinds of experiences and and actually even before she's born, you know, you knew she was arriving. And so what were some of the things that you were thinking about in terms of that shift from what you were doing to what you were going to be doing later?

SPEAKER_00: 3:20

Yeah, so uh predictability more than anything. I wanted some, I wanted my outcomes to be predictable so that I can give her a better life than what I had when I when I was a child. Uh, not that I had a bad childhood at all. But you know, I had a single mom, she had three kids, very, very difficult for her to do things. Um, so it it was just uh the idea that I don't want my daughter to have to go through that. And I knew that it uh if I kept on going the chef route, um, chances that I'm gonna become Gordon Ramsay are a slint and none. So I was always gonna be struggling there. And I I I was smart. So I got an interview with a company called Gartner, and uh I passed the interview, and that was the beginning, and that's where it started.

SPEAKER_01: 4:02

Okay. So at that point, how how did you choose what you would go into? Right? You say, Well, I did the interview with Gartner and I was successful with it, and yet it feels like there would have been a little bit of thought process around what kind of role you would want to have.

SPEAKER_00: 4:19

Actually, I just wanted an in into a tech company. Okay. And in this specific case, um, I was gonna be a sales coordinator. I had no idea what that was, but at the time they were paying$8 an hour, which was a lot of money back then. So I uh decided to go in there. Um and they put them they put a computer in front of me, right? And I figured it out. And uh all of a sudden I'm running tech support for the for the office in Atlanta. Uh, next thing you know, they're calling me from the main office in uh Stanford, Connecticut, and they're asking me, would I like to come and be part, uh former part of the uh help desk team? So I went up there and I and I decided, okay, let's let's go there. This seems to be, I seem to be able to hit the ball on this one. And within six months, I was manager of the team.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

Okay. Okay. And when you were thinking about that predictability and that stability probably for your daughter, what were some of the things that were really important to you that she would get from that?

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

I more than anything, what one of the things I said that my mom, uh, you know, was single mom, she worked her tail off. Uh, and number one, I wanted her to see that hard work pays off. Right? All of the impetus that I have in life to succeed and to move forward was because my mom taught me how to work hard. And that more than anything, that's what I wanted to show her. That, you know, even a person like me that had no uh no no background in this, I I can start from the bottom and work my way up. And I have.

SPEAKER_01: 5:48

Yeah.

unknown: 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:49

Yeah, you don't have to start in the middle or at the top in order to be successful. There's a there's a whole path of just learning about yourself as well as learning about what an organization does. What was it like when you first went into Gartner? Because that had to be a a big difference from what you'd been doing prior.

SPEAKER_00: 6:10

Absolutely, completely different. So uh it became real, right? It wasn't just I show up, I you know, put together a couple of ingredients that they told, you know, showed me a recipe on how to do. I actually had to think, I had to be challenged, and I love that. So I found out quickly that I thrive on challenge and I love to be pushed. And I love more than anything for somebody telling me you cannot do it. That really gets me going. Uh, so I had a lot of that, uh, a lot of colleagues, friends, uh, you know, what are you doing? You're gonna be moving to Connecticut, you're leaving all of this year. And I said, Look, I this is just something I have to do. I sold my wife on the idea and we moved up. And that was that. That's how it started.

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

Having talked my husband into a couple of things over the course of my life and professional life, I'm curious, what did that look like? You know, because you are you're moving that family unit that prompted you to move into this and you're relocating, you know, kind of to the snowy bits.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And and to be honest, I it was more of I think she caught my excitement. I think she sensed it. I told her, this is the opportunity. I know it. I know for a fact. I don't know what I'm doing, yet they're they're moving me up here anyway, you know, full relocation, all that good stuff. And and I started pretty late in life in in IT, in the corporate world. So started when I was around 30 or so before that. Like I said, I was in the well after school, I was in the military. Uh, from there I I became a cook. Before all of that, I was a recording engineer for uh Sound Studio. Uh and one thing that a lot of people may or may not know, I was a uh Roadie for Motley Crew during the uh Dr. Field tour.

SPEAKER_01: 8:00

All right. Wow, that's that's pretty amazing. How long were you doing that?

SPEAKER_00: 8:04

About a year. About a year. Once they once they moved over to the uh to the European leg of the tour, they have to hire people over there. So they they couldn't take powers.

SPEAKER_01: 8:12

Sure, that makes sense. That makes sense for sure. And yet, all of those kinds of experiences that brought you joy during that time, you set that aside in a sense, in order to pursue this other direction. While you were learning and getting your feet beneath you in that corporate environment, what were the things that you were really learning about yourself during that time?

SPEAKER_00: 8:34

I can. That's one of the things that I learned about myself more than anything, is I can't, if I put my mind to it, I can get it done. Now, it's really easy to procrastinate. I am no different from anybody else. Uh, but when I figured out that um I had the smarts to do it, uh, when I figured out that all I had to do is put the hard work, the effort, the attention to detail, which I already have, and things would start to materialize and work out. And yeah, it's not easy. I mean, one of the things that a lot of people uh they want all of the accolades, they they want the compensation, they want the travel, they want this, that, the other. And and unfortunately, none of that comes for free. You've got to give, you've got to invest. I spent countless hours studying, learning, uh, because one of the things that I can tell about myself is I don't know anything, right? I just know what I've learned. And I just started to focus on those things. If I had a gap in my knowledge, I'd just sit down and go for it. And I would just learn as much as I could about that. Uh, I honestly, I never wanted to be in leadership at all. One of my mentors at Gartner, Kevin Volpe, he was like, you know, I can get anybody to be a systems admin. I wanted to be a data center architect. Uh, he said, I can I can get anybody to be a systems admin for me or work in a data center. I can't find somebody that can put it all together for me. And I think that's you. So slowly but surely he started giving me challenges. Like my first huge challenge was to project manage. I I wasn't a project manager, to project manage the building of a building in Fort Myers, Florida for Gartner and work with the vendors. And that was a huge challenge. Uh, you talk about imposter syndrome. That was on the daily. I would wake up and think, what am I doing? I mean, this is crazy. But I kept I kept hitting the ball. You know, maybe not as far as I wanted to hit it. Maybe I didn't crush it into you know the top uh bleachers, but I I kept on hitting it. I'm you know, I kept moving forward. And slowly but surely that challenge became another challenge. And then from there, I just I started, uh became the uh the manager of the site. Uh, then I became the director for uh support and uh infrastructure solutions uh for Latin and North America. And then I became global. So it's it's just a slow progression, but uh very, very challenging. And like I said before, I thrive on challenge. I mean, there's nothing that will get me to talk to a recruiter quicker than being bored.

SPEAKER_01: 11:01

Yes, I I can appreciate that. And really, you know, I've said it on the podcast before that it's worthwhile to have those conversations because it might highlight, oh, I could maybe take that kind of challenge and apply it to where I am. So it's not always a bad thing when someone on the team is interviewing, because they might learn something that they bring back. And it might not be a resignation letter that they bring back from one of those. I I actually find pretty commonly that people find the grass is reasonably green on this side and going somewhere else doesn't help because the the cost is more than the gain. Not always true, obviously.

SPEAKER_00: 11:43

But not always true. But it I can tell you it is true in certain sentences. Uh, one of the things that um that I can tell you is that when when I started to work uh with Kevin, uh, you know, there were we had a very close relationship. I mean, he just took me under his wing, uh, him, Megan, a bunch of people. Uh, but he he basically one day called me out and he said, you know, what's going on? Uh some days you're all doom and gloom, some days, and I'm like, no, I'm I'm good, I'm handling it. And he's like, stop it. What's going on? Because I'm gonna be honest with you. You choose to get in your car to drive over here, you choose to walk through those doors, you choose to hit the elevator button, you choose to use your badge to get inside the facility. If you're doing all of that and you don't like it, why are you doing it? And that talk about a mind-blown moment. And I still, still to the point, today, right now, I actually have, and I'm saying this because you you said the word, I have a resignation letter in my in my back pocket. It's always there. And it's just because um I was taught that I am doing this because I want to do this. The day I do not wish to do this, I have an out. There's nobody holding me hostage, nobody's got a gun to my head. If I'm in a toxic environment and I choose to stay there, that's on Jose. It's not on anybody else. At the same time, if I choose to leave a really, really encouraging and you know nurturing environment, that's on Jose as well.

SPEAKER_01: 13:07

Yes. Yes. And one of the things that you had talked about was the idea of working hard and spending the time digging and learning the things that you didn't know and understanding that. What were some of the things that you found yourself doing, particularly as you moved into leadership, in order to really understand what you needed to understand in order to keep building that foundation higher?

SPEAKER_00: 13:35

Well, the the the beauty of it was that uh my management team at Gardner, they really invested in me. So they sent me to trainings. I went to uh multiple different courses. Uh, you know, uh they were very, very back then, well, I guess still uh to date, but they were very, very into cross-functional collaboration. And that was not something that really happened back then. It was uh there was a lot of, you know, you stay in your lane, you're siloed, you're, you know, the typical stuff. And one of the things that I learned was that I don't know enough about anything. As much as I know now, and after all of the years of experience, that one experience taught me that I there is always something that I can learn. There's always something that I can do to make myself better. It's not just about the money, it's not about the job, it's about me. I know how I function, I know what gives me satisfaction and what gives me that that sense of fulfillment. And it's when I nail something. And like I said before, it's especially when somebody's telling me, why are you even trying? You're not gonna get that.

SPEAKER_01: 14:34

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I I hear you say that or it kind of kind in that direction, right? Of I dare you to tell me I can't. What does that create within you when someone says that you can't?

SPEAKER_00: 14:49

It's a challenge. It's it's a challenge. It's like, okay, game on. Let me just show you exactly what I can and can't do. Um, you've got to be very, very, you've got to be confident, but there is a borderline, there's a line there that goes from confident to cocky. And and it is a constant struggle, right? I mean, you have to be, you have to make sure because you uh another thing that I was taught was that even though you may think that you're great, don't tell people that you're great. Let them tell you that you're great. And it's really easy when you're when you're fresh, when you're in, you know, young blood and you start getting some accomplishments underneath your belt, and you start, you know, getting increasingly bigger challenges and meeting them and exceeding at them. It's really easy to blur that line from being cocky to being humble yet, you know, 100% confident of my capabilities.

SPEAKER_01: 15:39

Absolutely. There's that there's that piece of it where you can be less confident than you should be and doubting yourself constantly. You kind of talked about the imposter syndrome side. And then there's this cocky that so it's like a spectrum in a sense. Where do you feel that that sense of confidence for you started?

SPEAKER_00: 16:02

Like I said, I think that it first started when I was able to go into a tech environment and get that interview. Uh, because I'm my interview was like, I know nothing of these things, right? I'm I'm a very straightforward person. So when the person was interviewing me, they said, But can you learn? And I said, I can learn anything I want. I put my mind to it. And that was enough. That was enough. But when I got in there and I started seeing that uh as I progressed and as I worked harder and as I showed what I was better, what I was capable of, the value increased and the responsibilities increased. And they they just kept giving me more. And what it's it's like, you know, there's a lot to be said nowadays about how everybody's all involved with the serotonin and dopamine fix, right? Yes. Once you start winning, talk about getting a dopamine fix. I mean, I mean, uh that you just want that to continue to happen. I want, I want, you know, I want to win. I want to continue to work, I want to continue to win. And uh that's just pushed me. And it's pushed me throughout my whole career.

SPEAKER_01: 17:03

And it it almost strikes me the way that you talk about that, that the the confidence is in, I will figure it out and really deeply embedded there. And at the same time, over your career, you have proven to yourself over and over and over again that that hard work does pay off. You're able to get recognized for those successes, even though you're not out there with a megaphone telling everyone how awesome Jose is. They actually see it. One of the things that when I talk to people, they say, Well, the work should speak for me. And I'm curious what you would say about that line of the work speaking for you when maybe people aren't always looking.

SPEAKER_00: 17:48

I have a problem with that, quite at work, quite frankly, because the work should speak for you, but how you portray yourself is it's half of the equation, right? So there's a lot to be said about EQ now, right? Yes. Uh, and that wasn't a thing, obviously, 20-something years ago when I was coming up. Um, it was more along the lines of you say as I do, and that's it. Don't worry about it. And I always thought that that was not something that I wanted to be, right? So I I I learned, I we talked about my mentors, and I've learned so much from him. I actually to one point we used to say, What would Kevin do? Right. When whenever I got in, I still do, by the way, I still speak to him and I still ask him that question. What would you do? Uh, but the truth of the matter is that once you start getting to the point where you start hitting the ball consistently, you just want to keep on doing it. You want to keep on going. And then you want to hit the ball harder. You want to get it uh to more places. It's it's for me anyway, for me at least, um, one of the things that drove me is just the fact that if I tried something and I was able to accomplish it, there was not uh okay, now it's time to chillax and rest. No, it's like, okay, I could have done this easier had I known X, Y, or Z. So what's the next step? Because I mean, learning uh what you don't know is is easy, but knowing what you don't know is difficult.

SPEAKER_01: 19:09

Yes. The other thing that I I really kind of pick up in that too is this it has to be repeatable. And and so you hit the ball, but you have to keep on hitting the ball. And you sound like you're really driven to make sure that more times than not it goes over the fence and that you can repeat that as well. What were some of the other, I might almost call them leadership myths, right? Like my work should speak for me, I'm the boss, do as I say, maybe even not as I do. Like those kinds of messy things that you didn't like. What were some of the other ones that as you came up, you recognized that didn't really work for you?

SPEAKER_00: 19:52

Uh back when I was coming up, leading to the it towards the individual was not a thing. It was a cookie cutter. Approach. I think that's where the process of coming up with the idea of breaking from the herd came from. You know, I did not want to do it. I've had some amazing managers and mentors. And I've, quite frankly, I've had some really, really bad management. And you know what? I've learned just as much as I have from my good mentors to my bad managers. With the bad managers, I know what not to do, who I don't want to be, right? And then obviously from my mentors, I I learned uh, you know, what works for me, what they believe. And then from there you go forward. But it's it's there's the the paradigms, you know, we we have a lot to say about uh, you know, the the whole servant leadership model. None of that existed, you know? Right. I mean, I when I started coming uh up uh on my own in in management, I always thought I wanna I wanna lead like I'm a band leader, right? I don't want to, I I need to know this guy's a drum, but he's a tom tom, and this one's a floor drum, and she's a piano. And I and I want to make I want to play stairway to heaven, but I can't play stairway to heaven if I don't know how the music sounds and how the instruments are to be used so I can get the best sound from them, you know? So I it I and and honestly, that's that's where that whole genesis came from. And I said, you know, I yeah, it's like if I because I used to be a recording engineer and I could say, okay, you're too loud, bring it down, your tempo's 1.2 seconds, you're you're 1.2 beats behind where you should be. And I and it's so powerful when you think about it because you give the opportunity to the person not only to tell them what they're doing wrong, because that's not the point. The point is like you could be so much better if you did X.

SPEAKER_01: 21:39

And it gives them something to strive for instead of something to avoid. I always used to talk about it in terms of you're going into a room and you're telling them not to look at the pink elephant. So naturally they do, and worse, that they don't know where to look. And what's really interesting too is how those previous careers have a tendency to show up in how you lead people. You're talking about the recording engineer that you don't want it to be too much dissonance in the music. You want there to be a little bit of harmony. When you think about the sous-chef part of your life, for example, what are some of the things that you feel like you've carried through from, you know, being a great chef, being a great cook that you would carry into thoughts about leadership?

SPEAKER_00: 22:28

Attention to detail. It's all about the detail, right? And to be able to learn how to scale things, right? All we need to do is find out what is the flavor of soup that we want, and then add ingredients or subtract ingredients, right? But you need to know what flavor you're looking for. When uh the thing that I learned as a chef, number one, because it is a service industry, I think that a lot of the customer service portion of my of my of my passion comes from there because I did it for the customers, right? I did it for paying customers that came and they wanted to eat my food, and I wanted them to say your food is fantastic, right? Same thing now, right? I mean, I I've got customers that come with me, they work with me, I advocate for them uh in my current role. Uh, but in the past as well. I mean, my customer could be my CEO. So many times it was, right? And and you have to work with them and you have to, because there's there's this something that I usually I usually tell my teams, and it's like you need to learn how to speak to your audience. A CEO doesn't have time for small talk, for chit chat, for long elaborated sentences. Give them a five-minute press. This is what you got, boom, boom, boom, bullet it out. But and then at the same time, if I'm speaking to a subordinate or if I'm speaking to a peer, I may have to uh extend it. I may have to go into more detail than I would like to, or that I that I need to with a different level. I think that that was very important as well. Um, and that I learned to deal with the customers as they come in. And like I said, a customer can be anything. A customer can be uh now you have influencers, you have all of these things that we didn't have to think about back then. But at any given time, the owner might come in and order something, and you're not, you don't know. So you always have to be at the top of your game.

SPEAKER_01: 24:11

And really tying into what is what who is the audience I'm talking to, and and having that kind of recognition. And like you say, changing the messaging, changing how you present it, even in terms of formality and and all of those elements as well. Because you could probably also be a little bit more relaxed with your peers, where when you're talking to a CEO, whether it's a customer CEO or yours, there's a a different kind of formality. And I don't mean buttoned up, be somebody else kind of thing. And that makes me think about the other aspect of this, which is you know, your evolution as a leader from where you started to where you are. It sounds as though you've brought yourself forward the most in terms of your leadership style. What is it that's really important to you about authenticity as a leader?

SPEAKER_00: 25:10

It shines if you're not authentic. It comes through you can BS your way through a whole bunch, not through everything. At some point, somebody's gonna find you out. And I truly believe that, you know, by staying authentic to yourself, what you're saying is what you mean. So it's very, very difficult to get caught up in a lie or in an embellishment, or because I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen so many times, where people say one thing trying to get favor off of their CEO or uh a new customer or whatever, and then get caught out. Uh, you you didn't mean what you were saying. I mean, look at look at you. As soon as I sign, you're no longer part of the of the solution. Uh you're now throwing me on. It it's it's it comes to. I think that authenticity uh works really well for for customer-facing roles, but then as a leader, I need to be authentic with my team. Uh I I don't want people that blanketly just follow everything that I say. I I I I I don't like that actually. I I I called people out for that. I was like, I I didn't hire you to be my, you know, to be my hype man. I hired you to let me know the things that I don't know based on your experience. And then I can take that, work with you, and collaborate. How can we fix it, right? Because the one of the leadership tricks that Kevin taught me was that he doesn't know everything. He doesn't. He's just a great manager. But he brought people in that knew their that knew their craft, that that had the skills needed, and then he would polish them, right? Uh, but he had a saying that said, you know, you polish a turd. Right. You take that turd and you polish it because if you can polish that, imagine what you can do with a real project. So I took on there might be a diamond in there somewhere. Absolutely. And I and I can tell you so many times that I took on, you know, the the messiest projects and nobody wanted at the beginning. Because number one, it would be a challenge and people couldn't couldn't get it done. And Jose went and got it done. And again, a lot of hard work went into it, a lot of nice reading, uh learning material that I knew nothing about in order to get to where I wanted to be. But when all is said and done, you hit that mark, you put in all that hard work, people recognize it, and normally you get that next step up.

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

Absolutely. And one of the things that it makes me actually think about is there was a time in my HR career where I found myself working with the executives that other people were like, oh, that person, I just can't. I just can't work with them. And for some reason, I did really well in those situations because one of the things that I could do is just tune into what is it that you don't like about HR? And trust me, there's usually been a list of things that they would say because if they were bitter toward HR, there was a reason for that. Not because they and sometimes it was correct and accurate. Maybe they had a partner that they were working with that soured them. Okay, I'm not that person. So could we just start fresh? And then the other side of it was I don't see any value in it, right? And then one of the things that I would use on the regular was how about you give me X amount of time every month for the next Y number of months? And if you find that I'm an echo chamber and I only tell you what you want to hear, or I'm here driving you in a particular direction that you think is ridiculous, well, then you don't have to talk to me anymore. Now, I will say the first time I did this, my boss was really not impressed that I took that risk.

SPEAKER_00: 28:49

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01: 28:50

But at the same time, if if you can't force people to work with you if they really are against it and they're really opposed to it. And what I'm hearing you say is when you have people who are around you who aren't living up to their best potential, be it a peer, be it a direct report, whatever it might be, helping them kind of see the best of themselves actually starts to get them engaged in the process. And one of the key things that you were talking about earlier was you need to be authentic as the leader, driving authenticity within your team. What happens for you when maybe a team member says, Yeah, I'm just really here for the paycheck. I don't really need to aspire to more. How does that challenge your leadership?

SPEAKER_00: 29:42

It depends. So there are some people that are just like that. One one thing that's true is I can't motivate anyone. I can figure out what the motivational triggers are to see if I can use those to shape the kind of behavior that I'm looking for. But when you can see that the especially when you inherit somebody, right? When you inherit a team, uh, because we all know we've all hired people and we all know just how uh how crucial it is to hire right the first time, uh, just from a money perspective. And how difficult as well. Yes. Absolutely. Uh, but once you start getting to the point where you're like, it's just I I just not seeing the effort, I'm not seeing the growth, I'm not seeing, just not seeing it. Then I at some point you're going on a performance improvement plan, and I'm gonna make it so difficult that uh you're either gonna leave or you're gonna say, you know what, this guy's giving me a chance, let's step it up. And I've had that happen way more times than I've had uh people that say, you know what, I'm just not gonna do this. This is beneath me. It's not it's not about uh it's not about you know punishing anybody. It's about teaching them. Look, this is what it takes. This is what you want. You're telling me that this is what you want. I'm telling you that the approach that you're taking right now is not gonna get you there. I am not responsible for your career path, but I am responsible to help you get there, right? Until certain points, obviously. I mean, if if what we do is is we work in IT, but you want to be in marketing, there's not much I can do about that. However, I can tell you, hey, then start talking to the marketing people, see if there's any special projects that you can work on, start reading. Uh as a as a manager, as a leader, you you've got to be conscious in that every single person is unique. All of them. All of them are triggered differently for motivation, all of them have different uh, you know, uh sore points, actually. Some of them don't like to be talked to in a in a harsh way. Some of them I I've seen, okay, when I when I'm when I'm strong in my approach, I I get more out of them. And and that is the that is the beauty of understanding who your team is, right? You you get to the point where you understand how you want them to work, you got that band going, right? And you're about to play stairway to heaven.

SPEAKER_01: 31:50

Yes. Well, and it also shows your emotional intelligence or emotional quotient. You talked about EQ earlier, where, and again, you talked about leadership uh is about the individual and how each individual comes into the team to make it, you know, uh beyond the sum of its parts, right? And and really being able to expand that. And I'm curious, you know, when you're when you're writing Breaking from the Heard and you're moving that book toward completion, I'm curious, what are some of the lessons that you have learned? I I won't expect you to give us all. I mean, we need to be able to go buy the book and get more information later. But what are a couple of the key leadership lessons that you really think that the listeners should hear?

SPEAKER_00: 32:42

This one is really easy for me. I don't want clones of me. I am not trying to take someone into leadership that number one doesn't have the desire because it doesn't work. Back in the day, you were you were basically measured on your success as whether you went into management or not. I mean, that is not the case anymore. No, you can have an incredibly successful career as a subject matter expert, right? It has absolutely nothing to do with management, no team structure, nothing. Uh, to the point that what I'm doing right now, um, the role that I had before was moved to Israel. Uh, so you know, I was thinking about retiring and uh opened up a food truck. That's uh way more work than I wanted. Uh so I got somebody to do that for me. But uh the thing is, is that what I what I did find out quickly is that I I work better when I have a challenge. And in this role specifically, I just wanted to be challenged as an individual contributor. I wanted to take a step down, I wanted to take a break. It's been 25 plus years of managing people at a large scale, right? I mean, I'm talking about I got my first global uh role when I was six, five, six years into the business, into the into the industry. And and then from there it's all it's all been that. So, but it it's still, it takes a lot of guts to take that kind of step. Yes. Uh, but what I did know is like I wasn't ready to quit yet, and I wasn't ready to get right right back into the fray of managing a large, you know, 100-person plus team.

SPEAKER_01: 34:15

How much do you find that you're leading even from an individual contributor seat?

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

Uh uh, yeah. Well, you know, that's something I can't turn off. Uh, I do have to do it with with caution and with care. I've got a fantastic manager. Uh, fantastic. He is he's excellent. He's a lot younger than me. Uh, but he he gets it. He understands, you know, and what he doesn't understand is that I understand that he understands. Uh, and and uh it's it's funny because one of the things that that I've always told uh my teams is that you you've got to get to the point where you want to do what you're doing. If you don't want to, if you're playing the short game, and your short game is you want to get paid on Fridays or on the 15th and 30th or whenever it is, and that's what you're focusing on, you're always gonna do the least amount of work possible for whatever compensation you're gonna get. All right. I may be cynical, I'm an old guy, you know, but the truth of the matter is that happens a lot. Uh however, if you are focused on pushing forward, if you're focused on excelling, if you're focused on proving yourself that not just other people, to yourself that you can like with this, I I I've uh with this role that I've got right now, I've encountered a number of challenges that had not been uh resolved or figured out, and I'm already figuring them out. Yes. So will will I stay in in an individual contributor role for long? Probably not. I'm gonna be honest. Uh it's just not my point.

SPEAKER_01: 35:40

It's a little bit too much in your blood to lead.

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

Yeah, absolutely. One of the good things is that I I do get this sense of understanding what the others are because before it was just uh I had to deal with sales, I had to deal with engineering, I had now it's like they are working with me to service a customer. And one thing that is true in every single business that I've worked in, uh, be it in IT or anything else, is that the only reason you're there is for that customer. When I was a recording engineer, the only reason I was there was because this guy wanted to record an album, whether he was good or not is irrelevant. I just had to do a job. Uh, when I was a cook, same thing, right? I just had to do the best job that I can. And then as a leader, as I started growing up through leadership, it just started taking its own form. And now it gets to the point where I can't think. For instance, today I had a one-on-one with my manager. He said, Okay, I want to talk about this and this and this. So I created a nine-page presentation with the stats and uh here's the deal. And he's like, I don't need all of this. He said, And I like, I get it, man. It's not a matter of you needing it, I need it. I need to produce that. You you're gonna be able to take whatever you and there's more information than you need, absolutely. But anybody else that picks up that document or that slide deck is gonna immediately get it. What happens? I'm huge on successor planning. What happens if I just do a half-assed job and then and I don't leave whatever's necessary for the next person doing this job? I'm I'm just I'm creating a disservice to that person, I'm creating a disservice to the company that has trusted me to create this. And, you know, when I explained it that way, I was like, I'm I'm not trying to show up anyone. This is how I do it. This should I I can't help it. Uh, if you want, you know, one letter sentences, I can, you know, a couple word sentences, I can do that, but I don't. I I elaborate, I break it down, and especially when I think that somebody else is going to benefit from it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:36

Well, and it strikes me that idea of succession and dare I say legacy, you know, it's and it also creates that structure, like you said, that other people can pick that up and go. So that if your interest moves over into another area, that someone can come in behind you and kind of slide into that seat. How many times have we entered a seat like that? And it's trying to almost recreate the whole thing because there's no record of anything that had happened before. And you've left a little bit of a legacy or a succession in other ways too, because with your daughter, if we could just revisit that for a second. And when you reflect on what she sees from her dad as the leader, what are the things that you think that she embodies based on those lessons and those insights you wanted her to see?

SPEAKER_00: 38:32

She's definitely got the smarts. Um, and I think that she combines that with hard work. And uh, granted, our career paths are completely different. She's an educator. Okay. So she does her own thing over there. One of my daughters is a mortgage banker. I mean, go figure. Uh, but uh the truth of the matter is that they all go their own route, but they do see what what work, hard work. I mean, it's not even hard work. I hate to say that because a lot of people will you will think that I'm a slave to the that it's not it. It's it's challenging yourself, getting to the point where you do something that makes you feel good and that gives you that rush. And and and when you win like that, it's really a powerful uh tool. It's it's it's so dynamic. I think that's what I was able to give them. And I that's what I see from them. I see that they work hard, they get what they want, they move forward, and then they tackle something else completely different.

SPEAKER_01: 39:25

Well, and it also strikes me that they pursued something that was of interest to them, something where they felt like I can make a difference here and I can really challenge myself. And that seems like that's part of the legacy that you have demonstrated for them as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:42

I hate to say this, but I treat them like employees sometimes, in the way that, you know, I'm I'm very candid and I'm very clear. And I'm like, what you're trying to do is not going to get you where you want to be. You're playing the short game. You need to play long game. Yeah, there's there's a bunch of stuff that I that I approach their upbringing, especially when it started to get to the point. Where they're actually working.

SPEAKER_01: 40:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 40:02

I was like, guys, if if anybody any one of you guys wants a job as an intern in an IT shop, I can get you like that. That said, none of them wanted that. And I don't blame them. Uh, this is something that you really have to you have to love it. Yeah, you have to love it because it is it uh can be a soulless uh task. But that's it, if I can say that that's what I've seen them uh attached to, is that just follow the instructions. The book is there, it's simple. Just read it, understand it, uh, learn what you need to do, learn what you don't need to do. And then there's always, you know, you you need somebody to be able to help you out to push some of those strong traits and then work with you to take away some of the bad habits.

SPEAKER_01: 40:47

Yes, absolutely. And speaking of the book, what prompted you to write the book?

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

I you know what? I just had it in my head for such a long time that that's what I wanted to do. When I started that, uh the day that that came to term, I I used to work uh as a CIO for uh for a recruitment firm in New York. And I used to get in, I lived in Connecticut, and I'd go at five o'clock in the morning, get on the train, and everybody's dressed in the same dark suit. Everybody's going to Grand Central Station, everybody's doing and and it was I I looked at it one day and I was like, I feel like we're cattle. I feel like we're just being pushed and into this little maze to go and do things. And I started thinking about that. And I was like, I don't want to be like that. I don't, I I don't I don't want to be the person that that forces that on people. That's where that's where the the idea came from. And then it's just been uh a matter of thinking about it. Should I do it? Let me write something. Uh then life takes over, different jobs, different challenges, things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 41:49

Yes. And then again, it seems like it's this starts with small steps, keeps on building up from there to the point where we're expecting that to be published soon after recording here. So I'm looking really forward to picking that up myself and being able to do that. And I'm curious, you know, as we've been talking here, is there anything that you would want to talk about that we didn't discuss or questions that we should just discuss a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 42:15

You know what? One of the things that I think we that I would that I would definitely like to talk about is, you know, what I and I kept on saying this, um creating leaders, right? Focusing on, and and you, I mean, you're a coach, right? Yes, this is what you do. You help leaders become better. How do I help somebody good become a leader? Right? And then from there have them learn at their own pace, understand their own positions, and and and not have to focus on, you know, if if somebody can do the job at a high level when I'm on vacation, that's a good person.

SPEAKER_01: 42:52

Yes. If I don't have to check my email, if I don't have to know what's going on, that is someone who can take the initiative and solve a problem, even if it's not perfect. I wasn't there. So if right, so solve it partially, and then we'll get it across the finish line later as we might need to.

SPEAKER_00: 43:11

There's so many people that don't look beyond the curve, right? You're driving down a curvy road, you don't know what's coming up. You don't know if a semi's coming your way and it has no brakes, you you've got to be always looking forward. Um, and when I find when I find that kind of uh resource, that kind of of a little diamond, right? That little thing that I can polish, it's such a satisfying thing. I have people that I've worked with for years, uh, that I've mentored for years and years and years. Uh, and they are all in really good positions, working uh really high capacity roles. Uh and uh it's it's that more than anything is what drives me and satisfies me, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01: 43:52

Well, and I think one of the things that I mean, I talk about it all the time as you know, integrating who you are with how you lead. And it it's such a critical piece because if you're so focused on being who somebody else told you to be, then that's a huge energy drain. It's exhausting to try to be someone. And it comes off fake, everyone can see it, and it becomes an opportunity for that individual to say, okay, so maybe that's why it's not working. Right? There are so many who are still conditioned to do it as they're told how to do it, as opposed to just leaning into right, but they hired you for the role. So you have characteristics that they want to see. And so show those, develop those, strengthen those. And that's where, and it's not the technical pieces, it's often the people pieces, understanding how people work and understanding how to engage in that kind of conversation, the way you do it. I work with a lot of introverts. They don't have a lot of words all the time, I happen to. But most introverts really like I think that there's a whole component where you have to recognize how to manage yourself, manage your own energy, manage your own kind of contribution level. Because the other thing that I think about when we're creating leaders is that if they are too focused on doing all of the work still and showing how they want to do it, you were saying repeatedly in our conversation, I don't know everything. Kevin said Kevin didn't know everything. And this idea that a leader needs to know everything is actually ridiculous because it should be the exact opposite of that.

SPEAKER_00: 45:47

Absolutely. You're just leading.

SPEAKER_01: 45:48

And I think part of it really comes down to helping people recognize all of the skills, all the leadership skills that they actually have. And that's true, whether they know it or not. So many times people say, Oh, I don't want to be a leader. I could never do that. Okay, so first of all, I kind of hear your I can't kind of thing in there. And I would hope that that would motivate them a little. Um, but even when it doesn't, part of it is these are the reasons that I see in you that you have what you need to be a leader. If you choose to do it or if you choose to stay in that individual contributor path, that's up to them. That's what they choose. But this idea of I can't becomes, of course you can. It's a question of do you want to?

SPEAKER_00: 46:36

Exactly. And and that becomes pervasive, right? Because it's not just business. You're if you're saying I can't, what else are you saying I can't too?

SPEAKER_01: 46:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 46:44

Well, how are you limiting yourself? How are you limiting your family? How are you how are you limiting your friends? Uh it's it's it's it's a very powerful thing um to be uh just to want to get things done, to want it to happen. I've had team members that um I I've actually told them, speak up. Every time you open your mouth, you hit a home run. Speak up. People listen to what you're saying. That is incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 47:13

And especially when you don't talk much, and then all of a sudden you say something, people are wait, wait, hold on. That person spoke and they don't speak very often. So we need to really tune in. So it is a bit of a superpower when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_00: 47:25

It is, but I think that's where also where a manager comes in, uh, a leader comes in, because you have to learn how to how to get people to that level, right? How to get how to push them beyond their uh their comfort zone, right? How do how do I get them uncomfortable, but yet not come so uncomfortable that they're that they're just missing it, right? Um, so that there's always that um it's like a dichotomy, right? I mean, you you want to be uh you are the leader, you are you know holding them accountable to specific work that you're paying for. None of this is a favor that anybody's doing you, you're actually paying somebody a salary. But at the same time, when you have somebody that you know for a fact that just a little bit more of effort on your part can make a dynamite uh, you know, team member versus just somebody that will on the, you know, on the traditional bell curve be on a three, uh why put in the effort? As a leader, that's what I believe we need to do. We just can't uh, you know, we got to break away from the um from the mentality that everybody gets treated the same.

SPEAKER_01: 48:28

I couldn't agree with you more with that. And and really the recognition of keeping that balance and and maintaining some semblance of push while also being able to retreat back into some comfort, because then you can push more again the next time. And I've really enjoyed our conversation today, and I'm so grateful that you agree to come on to the show. And certainly what we would love to do is to be able to capture some way for people to uh contact you, and we'll leave that link in the show notes so that people can reach out and learn a little bit more about how you lead and and how you operate in this space. So I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00: 49:09

Absolutely. I appreciate you. Thank you for your time. Uh it was uh it was a lot of fun, actually. I don't get to do this a lot. Becky, thank you for your time. I truly appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:17

Thank you. I do too. If you have interest in connecting and learning more about today's guest, check out the show notes for ways to connect and follow up. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.