Welcome And Ed’s Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Um, I brought them together and essentially said, leave your stripes at the door, you know, or your brand, uh, because we're all here because we each have distinctive capabilities and we need to integrate this in a way that's going to be really successful uh for the company. And they would they said to a person that it was unusual to have that kind of collaboration with their uh with other peers that were in other companies that might be providers, and uh, but it worked really, really well uh because it it was something about having the right people, not just the right organization.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. My guest today is Ed Holinsky, someone whose story is all about growth, grit, and finding purpose through change. Ed was born and raised in Detroit in a blue-collar family where everyone worked in the food business. But Ed chose a different journey into insurance sales and steadily worked his way up through the industry. Over time, he took on bigger challenges and new roles, eventually becoming a managing director at Marsh McClennan. What's especially inspiring is how Ed used that success as a springboard into what truly lights him up today, helping people and organizations grow. Now he focuses on leadership and organizational development, guiding others to reach their full potential and build stronger, more connected workplaces. Welcome to the podcast, Ed. It's always great to have a conversation with you, and I'm really looking forward to this one today.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, thank you, Becky. I'm delighted to be with you and to contribute to your uh podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yeah, and I I'm particularly excited about the inflection point that you're going to be sharing with us today. If you don't mind, kind of give us the you know the high-level version of that turning point for you, and then we'll turn back time and come back to it.

The Inflection Point Into L&D

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Okay, happy to do that. So I spent a number of years, as you uh mentioned in the intro in sales, sales management industry um focus uh in uh at Marsh and other companies. And I had the opportunity um in the years 2000 through 2008 uh to work for the chief learning officer at Marsh. That was a turning point for me. It gave me the opportunity to move from the transactional part of the business, which I'd been focused on on the brokerage side and um uh risk services, to helping to develop people and help to transform the organization. And we had uh a number of changes in leadership at that time at Marsh, so it gave us an opportunity to pivot and adapt uh to each leadership team to help support uh what they were trying to achieve in the organization. And it was fast moving, it was a great team. I had a lot of fun, and I learned the organizational development business from my peers and the chief learning officer who I worked with. I had no formal training in doing that, and I was uh uh given an opportunity to um develop those skills by uh being part of um major transformations at Marsh.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, and that's it's such an exciting kind of opportunity. When you're describing that way, I I think about you didn't necessarily have the training to do it. There's an opportunity to step in. So there's some courage in saying yes to something like that. When you think back to before moving into that role, you you said a little bit there that you were working kind of the sales area and and uh really focusing on those kinds of things. What was it that had you considering making a change at all at that point?

Options Weighed And Why Change Won

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, um it was uh happenstance more than anything. I had been running an e-learning business within Marsh, so it was within their consulting services, and they decided to exit that business, um, which gave me an opportunity to wind that down and then find my next uh role within the organization. Well, about that time they hired the first chief learning officer that they'd had at Marsh, uh, which showed some progressive movement for a company that had been kind of slow in the people space. And I thought I might want to attach to that and be part of what he was trying to build. I heard him speak in front of a group um at a meeting, and I looked him up and said, Do you need someone with my skill set and experience on your team? And he was pretty quick to take me on board, which was surprising to me and delightful.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yes, absolutely. When when you ask for that kind of opportunity and someone says, Yes, of course, that's like, whoo, wow. Wasn't really expecting that. That's right. And then one of the things that I'm really curious about is, you know, you you clearly showed the initiative to reach out to that chief learning officer and say, hey, you know, this looks like an interesting space to me. What were other things that you might have considered doing as you were winding down this business? Obviously, you know, you you have to kind of find what is my next step. What do you remember seeing as other options that you might have pursued?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah, um there were a couple things. I had a penchant for developing specialized expertise in different areas. So I had some industry specialty experience in higher education, and that was fun working as part of that group. I also uh had a fair amount of uh experience in captive insurance companies. So there was another path I could have gone down uh to work more with captive insurance companies, or perhaps to go back into higher education uh and work with the industry practice across uh offices. That each of those had been fun and were great learning for me while I was doing them, but I had little interest in going back, I found at the time to do those. So this was my number one option, and clearly I felt passionate about that compared to the others, which would have been nice roles, but not quite as uh uh inspiring or as engaging for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

One of the things that I hear as you describe that is this desire to keep on learning and learning new things, and so it does really make sense that you wouldn't want to go back into something that you've already learned. Granted, there's that opportunity to deepen your knowledge in those areas and and find some layer of excitement in that way, but a fresh slate, it sounds like was really appealing to you in that way.

Learning OD Without A Playbook

SPEAKER_01 6:46

No question. I think as as I look back over my career, Becky, I that it was not a linear or stair-step type of progression with my career, like many people are do very smartly, right? Build their capabilities so they can take on more responsibility. I was usually driven by is this something new that somebody hasn't done before or gives me a chance to put my imprint on it. And that was always attractive to me to uh be able to break new ground on something uh for the organization and learn something new.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

What what did it feel like when that chief learning officer responded and said, Hey, yeah, let's talk about this?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I I was surprised, um shocked maybe too strong a word, but very surprised and um ecstatic about the fact that uh there was an opportunity there because I had a fair amount of respect for him already, uh just from what little I knew about him, and I saw it as an opportunity to make a big contribution in the organization. I I've typically looked for um roles that could provide leverage or scale in my career, and this felt like one that gave me an opportunity to leverage what I could do and provide greater scale for it than other opportunities I'd had prior to that.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

One of the other things that you had talked about was as you had entered into this team, you were learning by having boots on the ground and really not through like an education process, but actually through almost an osmosis process from people who were around you within that department. How did you navigate that where you might not come in with the expertise, and yet it was important probably to upload as much information as possible at the time?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah, it's a great question. Um I think I had an advantage in that I had some credibility um in the insurance and risk management space with my peers there. So it allowed me to open doors on conversations more readily uh because of my experience. And then I would rely on um the expertise that we had in the learning and development team to really provide uh what was needed in shaping our solutions. And I learned as they were going through that um how to do that from them. So it was uh it it it really was uh fortuitous the way it played out.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

When when you describe that, I guess I'm I'm kind of thinking of it's almost like you gave access to some of the subject matter experts in in order to inform the education that was going to be created and developed in that way. And there's almost uh a give and take, because the people in the uh learning area may not have had the depth, probably didn't, in all fairness, have the depth of understanding about the industry and really the technical aspects of things. They were more on that side of building out the training and and really understanding those elements. And yet what you had mentioned was that it started there and then it grew and expanded. How did that morph over time in terms of your role and growing within it?

High Stakes, Insecurity, And Trust

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, so um I'll give you an example of how it started. This is the one that's most uh memorable for me. Um uh Marsh appointed a chief pricing officer, and he was a pretty senior person in the organization. He'd had 30 years experience uh with the company and was very well thought of. And I knocked on his door and I said, I'd love to work with you and help you as part of a learning and development team. I don't understand or know much about organizational development, but I know how to work hard, and I know if you tell me what you're looking for, I can find ways to get it done for you. And he said, Come on board, happy to have you as a partner and helping us to shape what we're doing and uh drive change in the organization. So that was a two-year project, and it gave me an opportunity to do organizational development without fully realizing what it was by partnering with him and doing a lot of different things that helped to move the needle on um improving our negotiation and pricing capabilities in the organization. And that gave me enough confidence um to come back to your question to then go into other areas and say, I think I can figure this out, right? Tell me what the need is and we'll find a way to help you get there. So I was using the context that I had about the business to have those conversations strategically and then bring a really strong team in to help uh drive the change.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Okay. Yes. So it's it's really creating that invitation in a way that it makes sense to them to say yes, knowing that you had the backstop of the team, so that there was really like you had all of the pieces that you needed in order to help achieve those goals. So it does make sense that you would feel kind of confident walking in and saying, hey, we can we can figure this out as we go. Where were there times, if any, and I imagine that there were, where you felt a little bit wiggly in terms of I'm not really sure this is going to go as well as I had hoped that it would?

Bringing In Experts And Integrating

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Well, it's the the one uh experience that stood out for me that um really caused me to sit up and take notice. I was working with the uh sales leader in the organization, and we were developing a program for uh both their sales leadership and the sales professionals in the organization. And he was a very um uh he was very bright uh sales leader, but very insecure. And um he pulled me in his office uh late, late one day and said, if this doesn't go well, I'm gonna have your head on a spike out on uh Sixth Avenue. And I said, Okay, I got it, right? So um noted.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Noted, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Um and you know, he was being overly dramatic to make a point, but his career was on the line, his credibility felt like. And I said to him, you know, why would I ever do anything other than my very best to help you achieve uh what you're trying to achieve with this group? I'm gonna work my behind off to make sure that this is successful, and at the end of the day, you're gonna be happy with the way things turn out. And he had enough trust to be able to say, okay, um tell me what you're doing, what you need. Um, and we went forward from there. And it was a great success, but um it pointed out to me that um, you know, sometimes um just having the greater good of the organization is not enough. You also have to be attentive to what the personal needs are of the person that's driving that because they're invested personally in it, and you want to make sure that they show well on it. Uh so that was a little bit of a wake-up call for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, and it's interesting where you describe him as bright but insecure. I mean, that's that's not uncommon, right? Like we can be smart people, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we believe that everything that we do is going to go well. And sometimes we learn that mostly by experience, right? Where we thought it was going to go great and it didn't. So it's it's probably not an unusual scenario that you were talking to someone who might feel a little bit anxious about handing over too much, right? And and trusting so much. What were some of the things that you did to build the trust? I mean, clearly you had the the industry background and some of the relationship side of things. How did you build on that to make sure that they felt safe when they were asking you to work on these projects?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah, um, we were uh fortunate in that um if it was a major initiative in the organization, uh, we were allowed to go out and secure additional help or expertise. So we brought some really high-powered outside organizations in to help our internal team uh when there was a need for specialization in pricing and negotiation sales leadership. So we went to some of the best and were able to sell them on investing uh in those partners and allowing us to be the integrators and implementers uh after the design was done uh for the program. So I think that gave them some additional comfort that it just wasn't me, wasn't just the L and D team, which was relatively new in the organization, but instead that we had some people that had uh deeper um and more specialized expertise in those areas.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Okay. Yeah. So I guess one of the things that I wonder about with that is as different projects came on and it seems like your focus started to grow and shift a little bit during that time too. As you look back on that, what were some of the things about you that you had to trust in and rely on in order to keep going through that change and transition?

Speed Over Pilots And Iteration

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, I think it was trusting my instincts because they were challenged uh more than a couple times. Um we had a CEO who had a high sense of urgency on the last major project we worked on, uh, which was helping uh the field force to become more consultative and less transactional, and he was ready to go to market tomorrow with that, meaning he wanted it done ASAP. And um uh one of the people who I have a great degree of respect for and still um collaborate with today said, Aren't you gonna do a pilot? And I said, No, we don't have time to do a pilot. And he said, It's unusual to not do a pilot for something of this scale. And I said, I know it is, and we're not gonna do a pilot. So he said, You're on the tightrope. And I said, I know, um, without a net. And so um I did trust the people that were working on it, and he was one of them. Had he not been involved and some of the other people we had, uh, I might have felt a little bit more of that pressure. But I felt the priority was for the CEO, get it there fast and make sure it's good. And we had a uh checkbook to go with that uh to bring in the right expertise. So I was confident that we would get there. And if we stubbed our toe along the way, um, you know, we would uh change that on the next version of the program as we were scaling it out to different regions of the uh the globe.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

That makes me really think about that idea of progress over perfection, where it can't be a walking disaster, right? Like it had to work, it had to be functional, and at the same time recognizing that you could iterate and just do better next time and keep that strength going. And it makes me wonder about some of the things that you learned about yourself and about yourself professionally during that particular time that still sort of stand out to you today.

Orchestrating Multi-Provider Collaboration

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, I found that um I was uh quite capable of bringing teams together around uh these types of initiatives, like the last one I mentioned. We had I think four different uh providers that were involved in that. And um I brought them together and essentially said, leave your stripes at the door, you know, or your brand, uh, because we're all here because we each have distinctive capabilities and we need to integrate this in a way that's going to be really successful uh for the company. And they would they said to a person that it was unusual to have that kind of collaboration with their uh with other peers that were in other companies that might be providers, and um, but it worked really, really well uh because it it was something about having the right people, not just the right organizations who were willing to uh step outside of what they would normally do and collaborate uh on what we're trying to pull together. So that gave me a lot of gratification to know that um I could conceptualize that, lead it, um, and rely on people who are highly skilled uh to bring it together in a way that seemed relatively seamless for the uh participants.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

What is it that you think that you could see in those situations that maybe someone else would have struggled with in pulling those teams together that way?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, I think I think it was seeing opportunity and not being tethered to tradition on what um had worked for them in other environments and what was a traditional approach that they might have been more comfortable with. This was a little bit about not necessarily breaking the China, but let's not be constrained by uh what's been done in the past because there's a big opportunity here for us to do something a little bit different. So I I think it was seeing that, you know, having a vision of what might be ahead and then helping to develop and iterate that with their help uh so that it became something really good uh by working together.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

It almost makes me think of uh you having a dinner party and you didn't break the china, but you weren't really worried about whether or not all of the China patterns were matching, right? Like there was almost like a a joy in let's mix and match and see what we can do to make this kind of fun. And and it also gives something for people to bond over, is this isn't the way we've done it before, so this is a little bit interesting.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's a good analogy.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

And and I'm curious too, in terms of kind of getting your organization development sea legs, if you will, what what were some of the things that you learned during that time that really were those foundational pieces of organizational development that really have carried you forward toward where you are now?

Context Before Content In OD

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I think uh because of the way I entered um that group uh and because of the way my role evolved, um, it gave me an opportunity to understand that sometimes context is more important than content or um what the uh solutions you're bringing to the party, right? Um there was a great, in my mind, need to first read um what the need was to go deeper to better understand why that was the need and to develop something that would help systemically to uh change the organization. I think even today, a lot of um LD practitioners, I think, take such great pride in what they do from a leadership development standpoint, sales standpoint, that they have a way of doing it and they just want to bring that into different organizations and repeat it, right? Which is great, understandable because that's their version of scaling. But for me, um there's something about being able to customize that to what the needs are and being less beholden to. Whatever has worked in the past or has worked for other organizations. And I, you know, as I went forward within Marsh and beyond that, you know, I looked for opportunities to meet the need in a different way by listening more intently and understanding more deeply and then bringing solutions that uh fit that pretty snugly as opposed to uh trying to just bring something in off the shelf, right? And uh putting it in front of them because it's had worked previously for someone else.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, even if it's off your own shelf and bringing it forward, it seems. And uh I'm curious when you think about sending that message to the chief learning officer saying, Hey, is there room for me on your team? And talking about some of these characteristics that helped you as you navigated that over the years after he hired you in, how many of those did you recognize in yourself prior to joining this team?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, uh it's a really interesting question because I thought my expertise was in e-learning, and that was why I thought I might have an in on his team, and I certainly used that for the first couple years. Uh, but my greater expertise or from his perspective, and I think it was proven out um in our success together, was the understanding of how the insurance business works, uh, the understanding of the culture of the organization, and understanding how to help effectuate change, uh, particularly for growth initiatives in the organization. So I didn't see myself as marketing that to him, right? I thought I had something I had developed the two years prior to making that request where he'd say, Yeah, I need somebody for e-learning, but I think he was smart enough to see beyond that and say, I need somebody that understands the insurance business, the culture here, and how to get things done with some of the leadership.

Conversations As The Engine Of Culture

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Well, and one of the things that I think is really powerful about that perspective is how much what others see in us isn't always what we see in ourselves, what we think is the most valuable thing. And we can get so fixated on, but this is why I'm valuable, this is why I'm important. And other people are seeing this broader landscape of where you might be able to fit into the pie sometimes and what an opportunity that can be when someone says, yes, you're that, and we'll use that. And also we're going to be developing in these other areas. Because certainly where you are now and the things that you do today, it strikes me that you can't use a cookie-cutter approach and take it just off the shelf and and use it in the work that you do today. What do you think are some of the fundamental pieces that you feel you're using the most today versus maybe what you were using back at that point in time, like the the growth from then until now?

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah. So I I believe that business runs on a series of conversations, you know, and there's businesses that make things, sell things, do things. So I'm not minimizing that, but I think um for culture and growth in an organization, that happens through conversations. And sometimes it's one-to-one conversations um to lay the foundation for bigger things to happen with more people who become part of the conversation. I didn't realize the power of that um when I first started um in this role at Marsh, and it took a while for me to really understand that that's how change happens, right? A conversation at a time, um, and uh being able to uh reframe things for people and influence them in a way that helps them to see the world a little bit differently. And I'm practicing that today in what I do that uh you know it's it's about listening intently, it is about uh uh sometimes brainstorming with people, um, but it is this, right? It's having a one-to-one conversation, so I better understand you why you want what you want, what your assumptions are that sit under that, and share with you my thoughts around might there be other options and why I think there may be other things that are worth exploring.

Values On Walls Versus Lived Values

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I I I really couldn't agree with you more on that. That it's it's a conversation I have with some frequency about developing the culture of an organization and maybe even like designing some of the subculture elements of an organization. Because if you have more than a dozen people, you usually have a subculture somewhere, right? And so part of and that is not a scientific reference, but it's just sort of a thumbnail version, right? And one of the things that it makes me think about is how many times I hear people talk about we put the values up on the wall for the culture, and that's just what it's supposed to be. And that's part of it. I I don't poo-poo that at all. I think that there is a power of advertising and branding and marketing those elements. And yet there's also this element of conversation. If someone were asking you about that, how do you reconcile those two things? The signs on the walls in the building versus the one-on-one or the group conversations, how do those things tie together from a cultural perspective?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive. I do think um having something posted shows a commitment uh to what you want to stand for in the organization. But I actually believe that those are brought to life through one-to-one conversations. It really is uh when there's a tough decision that has to be made and you check on your value set and say, if this is really what we're about, this is why we should go in this direction. And I think people start to believe it when they hear you say that, see you act on it, um, as opposed to putting it on a wall. People rarely will behave differently as a result of seeing a value set in loose site or a poster on a wall, right? It's nice and it can be inspiring and impressive for customers that are coming in to know what your aspirational values are, but it really is about living those, and that happens typically through interaction and conversations.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yes, and and and part of that that I think about is from that organizational development component where it's every day is part of the development of your organization, be that on a culture or an architectural design, right? Like the from a hierarchy, structure, and and those kinds of things. Because similarly, I would say you can change the org chart. That does not necessarily change the human behavior in terms of how things get done. And I wonder a little bit when you think about the power of that conversation, how powerful is it within an organization? If someone were to push back on you and say, oh, it has to be something more than that, how would you respond to someone who was resistant to that idea?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

I do think um I could understand why somebody might have that position, first of all, because um sometimes it takes action, not just talking about things, right? So um when I say conversation, I mean um talking about why a value is important and using that as a guidepost for action in the organization. So yes, uh, in some ways it takes more than just the conversation, but I think it's the conversation that uh provides uh the grist um for someone to understand uh why you're behaving in a certain way.

Revisiting Values And Avoiding Cynicism

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Absolutely. And it it strikes me as you're talking about that that there's the the piece of it that is there's no action or check on the behaviors or the values unless there's a conversation. It's almost as if without the conversation, all of the other things won't flow through. So if we're not talking to people about this is where I want to reinforce what you're doing, this is where I'd like to maybe tweak it a little bit. And this kind of behavior is just not okay. But we just can't have that. That that gives the employee base, and that's all levels, all employees, an idea of where are those guide rails and where is it that it's acceptable to navigate within this organization. And that's really a fundamental of how we get things done.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

That's right. And they're not really values unless they you would use them to hire to and fire for, right? Uh for violating uh something that you think is sacred to the organization. And that's where it's not about what's on the wall. It's about what you will do as a result of what you're seeing in the organization.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

That's such a a powerful point, you know, because I I have talked to a few people who would say it really hurt them to see the posters and the words up on the wall because there were so many actions that they were seeing within an organization where their leadership, whether it's their direct leadership or other, they they didn't see them living it. And if you were talking to an executive who was feeling like what was on the wall or what was being proposed wasn't necessarily the way the organization was living its principles, what kind of guidance would you typically give someone like that today?

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, depending on the size of the organization and how sacred those values are, I would say maybe it's time to revisit the values, right? And if that's the person who contributed to them or is part of the leadership team that um has helped those to live on, I would say let's take a minute and determine whether those are the right values or not, because it should be congruent with the behavior in the organization or aspirationally helping you achieve better behavior uh in the organization, because if there's too wide of a chasm between the two over time, you're right. People will shake their heads and they'll say, you know, that's hypocritical because that's not what I see here day in and day out, and they lose their confidence in leadership and the organization when that happens.

Defining A Win For Employees

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, and it strikes me too that when during the introduction, right, that one of the things that you really strive for is that idea of helping others to reach their full potential. So part of that is culture and the values and things. What are some of the other things when you're looking at an organization and and speaking to their leadership that you think are really fundamentally important for the employees to fulfill that potential that they have?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

I I think um it's helping leaders to determine what a win is for the employees. I think there's an assumption many times that uh by leaders that uh because they want to grow and build a successful company that everybody's gonna benefit for that and people from that, and people should be happy with that. And they may or may not be, right? That may not, that may not be their big payoff or the reason that they come to work each day. And I think there is something about taking the time as leaders to better understand people individually, understand what a win is for them personally and professionally, and help them to achieve those wins, whether it's in the same organization or somewhere else outside of that organization. Um, and I don't think a lot of leaders are willing to think that broadly about um helping people with um opportunities, and um so it's uh I I I think a great learning point for many.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

It can be scary, right? To to keep on developing someone. I mean, the the couple of things that even just come to my mind, and I'll be interested in what your thoughts are and if you would add to the list. But one is what if I develop them and they're better at my job than I am, and I get bumped and they come in, right? That's one. And the other side of it too is what if I develop them and I realize there isn't a place for them, and then they take all of that capability and they leave me and they go to a different organization. Well, I look bad because I lost this person who is, you know, doing so well and so highly regarded, and then they're off to another thing because I developed them to do that thing. Yeah. It it can be an awkward message to share upward through leadership, even if upward through the leadership is to the CEO or board.

Developing People Who May Leave

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yep. Yep. Well, tackle your first one first and then come back to the second one if that's okay. Yes. The um so the the first one, I think having someone develop and becoming better than we are, um, I think that's an opportunity, right? Um, and if you can do that, um, you should applaud them and you should take great pride in that. This gets back to insecurity, right? And I'm not so insecure that if somebody comes becomes better than I am at doing what I do, that I would not allow them the opportunity to do that. There may be something better for me somewhere else where I fit uh better, and maybe I've lived beyond my usefulness in the uh uh role that I'm in uh currently. But um uh the other one, um the second one about uh developing them and have them go somewhere else. I think uh it that's been a reframing for me. I think for the longest time, many businesses would recognize retention um as an ultimate goal, and that if we retain people, we're really a great company. And I think that may be true, but it's not absolute. I think there um are companies um that have developed people who have gone on and done bigger things at other companies in the same industry, and they're a bit of a feeder uh for the industry, and um they've made the world better uh as a result of developing those people and helping them achieve some of their success. And the two are intertwined because those people may have left anyway, I think, um uh depending on what their motivation is or was at the time, and you're just helping them achieve what they would have um anyway, um, but maybe accelerating that for them by uh developing them and working with them to make them better. So I'm I'm not threatened by that. I almost think a better measure long term compared to retention is do people come back? Do we have boomerangs? And have we strengthened them and other companies as a result of developing people? Because over time, uh, if people want to play a long game, um, there's recognition in the industry that that's a place that you go to to get developed, right? Um, and they'll attract people because of that, even if they've turned some over who have gone and found greater opportunities.

Tours Of Duty And Adaptability

SPEAKER_00 36:51

And one of the things that really strikes me about that second example, because I I I definitely would agree with you, that there is there is a definition of success that comes into play where I've developed this person so that they've gone on over here and they've been successful on that path over there, the feeder that you were talking about. The other piece is that most people don't stay with an employer for that long anymore. Like even a decade is a long time for people. I talk to so many who say, Well, I've already been here for 10 years, right? And it's and it's like this mark of pride where it used to be maybe 20, 30, 40, even that people would talk about, and that's just not a truth most of the time anymore. Mostly I would say it's probably in that five to 10 year range, at least based on what I've seen. Others might have statistics that could upgrade my knowledge on that. But I think it's really interesting to think, well, I'm going to keep them forever. Well, if there's not a seat for them for their full trajectory of their potential development, then why would you ever think that it would be in their best interest or in yours? Because you would be having someone who is stagnating on your team because they weren't able to keep developing and learning along that path. And who wants that on their team? Even when I go in and coach people and I say, look, I don't coach people to stay or go, right? But people will sometimes come to a realization of I am truly committed and I'm doubling down here, or maybe this just doesn't fit for me anymore, and maybe I do need to look for something else. And I try to express that as a good thing because the people who really want to stay are the people who are staying. And the people who, to your earlier point, are likely to go anyway at some stage. It feels like you're just offering them a positive reason to continue to advance and to move out.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Yeah. Yeah. There uh there was a book written, I think it was by Hoffman, um, where he talks about instead of careers, um, it's tours, right? That we have three-year tours, sometimes five-year tours, and what can we do to equip employees to be as successful as they can be while they're doing that tour and prepare them for the next phase, whatever is beyond that for them. And I think that's the reset that a lot of employers need to do, particularly with the acceleration we're seeing with technology right now. It's less about do they have the skill set we need? It's more about do they have the adaptability to move from that into whatever is going to be next for us because the world's changing too fast to hold on to things that worked uh 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Well, and that makes me think back to the adaptability that you demonstrated at your own inflection point where we started today, where it could have been, I feel at risk, I feel like this is, you know, I'm I'm winding this down and I don't necessarily have my next step clear. You had to be adaptable to even create some of those alternatives for yourself and then sort of reach out and grab the ticket for maybe what felt like a long shot at the time. If you were to give advice to someone who was thinking about what am I going to do in this situation where I can't stay on the trajectory I'm on and I'm looking for something else, based on your experience, what would you suggest they think about or do?

Listening To Your Gut In Transitions

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah, um my experience was that um sometimes your gut will tell you what you need to do. And I think uh when I had a couple of opportunities ahead of me, um and leadership and development or organizational development was one of the streams to go in, and the other was to go back into something I had done previously. I started I paid attention to what my body was saying, right? And it was uh uh not positive on doing something uh that I'd been doing previously. So there is a bit about taking a minute to reflect and um sense what you're feeling and why you may be feeling that way. And if you're not excited about it, um it's probably not gonna be a great opportunity for you. And I'm you know, I'm careful to say passion because I know that gets oversold sometimes, where young people are told to follow their passion and sometimes they can't get paid for their passion. But I also think there is something about being excited or energized about opportunities. And if you're not getting at least that level as a result of what's ahead of you, maybe you should be looking for something else.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

That that's really meaningful, and it and it makes me think about we spend so much time at work. To do something that feels like drudgery or it just doesn't light you up in some way, that's kind of an unfortunate thing to sign yourself up for. In in some respects, you might end up working on a project or an assignment or something that's just like, seriously, do I have to go and do this today? And I get that, right? That's that's kind of rite of passage kinds of things sometimes. But if that's the same thing over and over again, or you're at this place where you get to choose, and you would choose something that's like, meh, meh, I'm not really excited, versus well, at least that would be really interesting to learn. And I would be able to challenge myself to be able to figure out some of these things, and that pulls me in to your point, even physically, like there's a the a body reaction that says, I can lean in on this and and get excited about doing those kinds of things. I think that it's it's really uh I don't know, it's a bit of a courageous thing to take a leap like that. Are there any cautions that you would offer to someone as they were stepping out of their normal lane into a different lane?

Courage, Risk, And Nonlinear Careers

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Um I think just like being a business leader, you have to take risk in order to uh get the reward. And I think similarly, if you want to find things that are going to be engaging and energizing, many times you have to take some risk because you won't know ahead of time how that's gonna play out. And it might feel safe and secure to sit snugly inside an organization and continue to do some of the things that you've done successfully. It's an illusion, right? That safety or the warmth of that security that you feel um in that company because that can go away pretty quickly. But um, you're right, it does take courage, and I would encourage people to be courageous, right? To step out and try some things they haven't tried that they think they might like or might get good at um in order to give themselves the opportunity to do that and uh see if it plays out for them because you won't know until you try. And um, that may mean some failures along the way, right? Some things that don't work out as well. And I've, you know, after I left Marsh, I had uh a number of roles, a couple of which weren't. Great fits for me. I didn't know it at the time, you know, when I stepped into those. But it wasn't if I was looking for safety or security, it wasn't the ideal choice for me to make the choice that I did because there were a number of transitions after that. But ultimately it put me where I'm at today, which is doing something I very, very much enjoy having the kind of impact I want to have with business leaders. And it took a bit of a trek, you know, to get there through the other roles.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Well, and also I know in the work that you're doing today that you have an opportunity to challenge yourself and be courageous and stepping into different things on the on the regular, really. I guess I'm curious around that when you think about the things that you're challenging yourself to do today, what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 44:51

So the biggest challenge for me, um I I find that most people uh have a penchant or a proclivity for steering away from difficult conversations. Anything that can be perceived as being confrontational, critical, um, people will shy away from that. And I would say, you know, not universally, but probably 80% of the population, right? Yeah. Not that too is not scientific, Becky, but uh so don't hold me to it. But that would be my guess. That um because it's pretty consistent when I talk with business leaders and people around business leaders that they don't want to have the difficult conversations. Um so for me, what it looks like is when I'm sitting in a room to say something that's critical, but to do it in a loving way so that somebody can become better um as a result of getting that feedback. And I don't always know how long it's gonna take me to earn the right uh to do that uh with someone, and I want it to land well uh when I do it. So I have to sometimes pace myself on is this the right conversation, or should I wait for a little bit? And am I waiting because I'm afraid to have the conversation, or am I await am I waiting because I think the timing might be better in three months uh to have the conversation? So I'm I'm regularly challenging myself to say, ask if are you being direct enough um in a loving way um and not holding back? And have you earned the right in a way where it's gonna land properly for the person that you're talking with?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah. And it makes me wonder what are the markers that you would say show you now is the time to have that loving and difficult conversation?

The Art Of Loving Directness

SPEAKER_01 46:35

It's good. It's uh yeah, it's I don't think there are very many visible markers. I had a conversation today with a great leader, um, and he was vulnerable enough to share some things that were going on with him that he was very troubled by, and it opened the door for me to give some feedback. I might not otherwise give this early in the relationship. We've only been together a couple times, and sometimes it takes a few months, you know, in order to have that confidence and trust. But it seemed like it was the appropriate thing uh today, given where he was at and what I think he needed. Did I overstep? I don't think so, but there was a danger of that because it was early um in the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

What's really kind of standing out to me in that is that once you have the seed in your mind, I'm looking for the time to have this conversation. I do believe that there there becomes an opportunity that you say, I think I can now. If you're always thinking about, I'm afraid to have this conversation and I'm trying to avoid it, then that opportunity never shows up because you're looking to avoid it. But when you're looking to say, hey, I I've been wanting to ask you about this, or I've been wanting to talk to you about this, and I feel like this might be the right time. And some of that is asking for the permission, right? To say, is it a good time to kind of share something that I'm seeing here? So that they've actually verbally opted in in a sense. But I think it's really powerful what you're saying in terms of there's a there's a gut moment, there's a check where you say, is this the right time? And you have to have the courage to say yes and the wisdom when to say no, in a sense, with that. Yeah. Well said. Well, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I'm wondering if there's anything that you would want to talk about that we didn't discuss during our conversation today or any questions for me?

Timing Tough Conversations

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Um, I do have one additional point um that I'd like to bring up. Um, and this is primarily because we're in such a period of uncertainty and uh commotion uh societally, um, that uh I do think there's an opportunity for businesses and business leaders um more than ever. Um, you know, the uh Gallup surveys show that our confidence and trust in many of the institutions around us is eroding. Um, but small and mid-sized business leaders tend to stay pretty steady, you know, where people feel confidence and trust in those relationships. And I think this is a time where um leaders have an opportunity to lead more than they ever have in the past and to show that they're authentic, that they've got a great value set, um, that they have the interest of the employees and society in front of them and are paying attention to that and want to make the world a better place. And I think if leaders across the board, small, mid-sized businesses step up to that opportunity, it'll have a profound impact, um, not just on the economy, but on our society and the way we um collaborate with each other. And if we don't, if we shrink away from that, um, I just think that we'll be contributing to something that won't be getting better uh as soon as we would like it to.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

That really uh thank you for adding that to the conversation. I I don't think I could agree with you more on that. That when we're looking for where is it that we can find something to hold on to, something that feels like it might stay a bit steady. And again, small to mid-sized businesses aren't necessarily universally stable, but it is uh an environment in which people can stay connected to people within that organization. It's almost a a bit more of a community-minded because it's not so large. And even in large organizations within the pockets of a function or a division, sometimes it can still be small enough to feel that connectedness and to have that alignment so that people can still feel like they're part of something and they're connected to something that is positive and advancing society in some way, shape, or form. So I really appreciate you sharing that with me.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

You bet. Yeah. Thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Absolutely, and thank you for joining me for the interview today. It, like I said, has been my pleasure and uh appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Thanks, Becky. It was an honor and a pleasure to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

If you have interest in connecting and learning more about today's guest, check out the show notes for ways to connect and follow up. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.