The Hidden Cost Of Flexibility

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I was feeling overwhelmed because, you know, like you said, yes, you get to pick your own hours. But on the other side of that, I felt like I was working all the time. Honestly, I felt guilty for not constantly working on my business. And and so I I never took days off because I I just felt bad about it. And so I was getting those feelings of like, gosh, this is feeling overwhelming because not only do I need to be a coach and prepare for those coaching engagements, I also need to be marketing and it never felt like I was doing enough.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. My guest today is Michelle Davis, who is an executive coach and program manager of executive coaching who is passionate about transforming people and workplaces from functioning to flourishing. She sees the workplace as a playground where professionals can live their values, cultivate meaning, and reach their highest potential. Michelle currently leads the internal coaching practice at a professional services and advisory firm where the mission is to empower associates to live the lives they imagine. Michelle, it is so great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

I know today you're joining me to share one of the inflection points in your career and specifically from the outside to the inside, which is a unique shift. Can you just give the listeners a little bit of what I might call the thumbnail version of what that inflection point was?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, sure. Yeah, so I had been coaching for, let's see, five, six years, I think. I'm, you know, doing the normal coach thing where you're uh taking on different clients, different revenue streams. I was working for myself, but also with other organizations. Um, and I was enjoying it for for a good while. Um, and then I don't know, something in the the, you know, that last year I was first of all kind of getting lonely uh working for my working for myself. And I also began wondering how much of an impact I was really having working with individuals in multiple organizations. So it got me thinking, hmm, maybe I need to pivot.

A Coach’s Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Maybe there's another way to do this instead of the way that brought me pleasure, brought me reward, and now maybe just isn't feeling the same way. So let's turn back that clock and talk a little bit about when you first started coaching and and where you found yourself in this place. I mean, what was that journey like?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah. Well, I like to say every coach has an origin story. Uh, we don't come out of college, you know, as executive coaches. True.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Very true. And one of the common threads in talking to coaches is that they got a coach for whatever reason they they got a coach and they go, wow, this is really cool, much like you said. And wow, I wonder what this is like. And even for myself, when I signed up for coaching, I thought about it as improving me as an HR professional and as a leader, much in the same thread as what you did. And in it's an interesting kind of pattern that happens. What is it for you that made you think this coaching thing feels like it's a career path for me versus this is a really great experience that has helped me continue on the path I'm already on or make a different transition?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

When you have a transformational experience, you want to provide that for other people. You want to give that out to the world because it made such a difference for you, or at least try to make that kind of transformation. Um, and I think you have to experience coaching to really understand it. I didn't really know what I was buying when I when I hired a coach. I wasn't quite sure. I just I needed someone to help me figure stuff out. And I got so much more out of it that yeah, it I think it was just the transformation piece of it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, and it's that power of paying it forward of I got this thing and I need other people to see it. I need other people to experience this. I too, when I signed up for coaching, had no idea what I was signing up for in terms of the coaching program. I hadn't even had a coach before. And I hear what you're saying. Once I started doing that peer coaching, I thought I can't just restrict this to the role that I'm in. I won't be able to do it enough in the role that I'm in. And I I can appreciate what you're saying, where it becomes this, I need to do this because I need other people to experience what this feels like. It's that important to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

There's another piece that I just thought about too, is that coaching really forces you to go inside of yourself and really get in there and dig into that baggage. And, you know, it can be messy, but it's it's such a transformational process that in becoming a coach, I knew that I could continue that work going forward as a coach. And so I think it was in some ways selfish too. It was, yes, I want to give this out and hopefully have that impact out there, but I also selfishly wanted to continue that personal development journey.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

That that is really powerful as an insight because if if we as coaches, inside or out, don't continue to do our own work, then we stagnate in terms of what kind of service, what kind of support, what kind of change we can make space for with our clients as well. And so, yes, okay, potentially some selfish there. And also the return is shared with the client because the more that the coach does the work, the more that the coach is prepared to support their clients in doing deeper and broader work as well. If we stop, then we're not as useful to the people who hire us or who engage with us. And I think that that's really important to recognize. So thank you for bringing that in.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

So I had a career before I became a coach. I worked for 15 years in business development. So uh was kind of climbing that ladder at an organization, and I think like a lot of people kind of had a mid-career crisis or an awakening, however you like to look at it, and uh was looking up that ladder and going, oh my gosh, do I really want to climb this ladder anymore? I was burned out, I was uh overwhelmed, I had small kids at the time, I was doing a lot of traveling, and I knew that something needed to change. So uh, you know, fast forward, I'm kinda I hired a coach, had an amazing experience, and it really opened my eyes to like I maybe I could be doing something different here. So obviously the coaching had a had a big impact on me, and I thought, wow, being a coach sounds pretty cool. Do people actually do this for a job? So I began exploring different training programs. I thought, you know, I just want these skills. And regardless of whether I make the leap and become a coach or not, I think it would help me be a better manager, a better parent. So I uh signed up for coach training and that first weekend uh away uh for the for the training, I was like, okay, I've found my people. This is this is exactly what I want to do. These are the people I want to be around. And I, you know, I I thought, okay, now I need to start making a plan of my exit from this career that I have kind of really built my identity around and really kind of make this kind of pivot, you know, uh into what I really I didn't know what it was gonna look like at first. But um yeah, so that's that's how I started my coaching career.

Why Solopreneur Life Looked Perfect

SPEAKER_00 8:50

It's it's always so interesting to me that these inflection points in our lives and in our careers are often really compounded inflection points. And what you're describing is that this early stage one was I've been doing this thing, it's been my identity, but it's really starting to rip me apart a little bit. And I need to do something different. And then all of a sudden you walk into a room and you think, oh my goodness, these are these are my people, this is what I must do now. And that's what led you to the outside coaching, where you were doing third-party coaching, but also direct client coaching and things like that. What was it that had you deciding in the early years to be outside and selling it on your own as opposed to doing it internal coaching at that point?

SPEAKER_01 9:43

I think the idea of being a solopreneur was so sexy. You know, after working in an organization with multiple levels of hierarchy, I it was so freeing to start my own business and do things my own way, work with people that I wanted to work with. It was so alluring, I will say. And it, I mean, it it still is in some ways, you know. Uh, but yeah, I think it was it was the idea of gosh, I could actually do the, you know, have my own business and succeed on that kind of level without, you know, working in a in a giant corporation. It just that that to me just sounded so cool. Um, and it was, and I enjoyed kind of the variety of being um, you know, my own having my own coaching practice. Um, I enjoyed networking with other coaches, loved that piece as well. And it could be stressful at times, sort of the ebbs and flows of of coaching gigs, uh, and always like chasing the next coaching client.

Always-On Work And Marketing Resentment

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Um yeah, that idea of entrepreneurship is alluring. Certainly that's true. There's there's kind of a vibe, and there's this idea of, oh, you get to pick your own hours and everything is just all these kinds of things. And to some degree, there's a lot of flexibility with being an entrepreneur. And yet also there's a lot of pressure to deliver because if you don't work, you kind of eat less, in a sense. And so there's a pressure that balances that allure of, well, I get to do my own thing. I get to work with who I choose to work with. And there is a real blessing in being in that place of choice. And yet it sounds to me like there was this place where you got to maybe the pressure is the kind of pressure that I no longer want to engage with. So when you started thinking about, you described it earlier as that first or that last year where you're like, you know what, something's just not fitting right now. What were some of the signals that you were getting that maybe this outside coaching arrangement wasn't going to be your forever choice?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. I, you know, I it's funny. I started having the same feelings that I did at the organization where I was before coaching, and that I was feeling overwhelmed because, you know, like you said, yes, you get to pick your own hours, but on the other side of that, I felt like I was working all the time. Honestly, I felt guilty for not constantly working on my business. And and so I I never took days off because I I just felt bad about it. And so I was getting those feelings of like, gosh, this is feeling overwhelming because not only do I need to be a coach and prepare for those coaching engagements, I also need to be marketing and it never felt like I was doing enough. Um, and I give coaches like you all the credit in the world for like being so good at that piece. I was just never really good at it and never really enjoyed it. And so it became just this other part of my job that I really started to resent.

Team Belonging And Systems Impact

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, that that's that's such a powerful perspective because I've actually spoken to a couple of people who thought about going into coaching, right? People want to knock on the door and say, how do you do this? Right. And I I'm not a big seller of the idea all the time because there's this perspective of, well, I know all of these people, and so I will just land clients easily. And sometimes they come and it's an easy close, and other times you really have a lot of stress wondering what's going to happen. And that isn't the only aspect of it. It's really what you were talking about. And I would say, in my experience, and it certainly sounds like in yours as well, there's a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of courage that goes into going out and putting yourself in front of people and constantly talking about what you do. And especially when you are talking about this sense of feeling guilty, anytime you might turn that off. So it's like, well, I'm meeting friends, I have to do this, right? Like it's it's and I'm not suggesting that you felt that way, but it certainly is a situation where you always feel like the business owner side of you is always on. And that's what I'm really hearing you talk about with that. What were some of the things that really prompted you to switch over to say it's the internal coaching seat that I want to be in, instead of perhaps a different direction that you might have gone?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah. Well, so in addition to the kind of pressure and overwhelm I was feeling around the marketing business development, which is funny because that was my career before. And it honestly felt like I was still in the same career in a lot of ways. In addition, though, I I was just really lonely. I really missed working on a team, working with people toward a goal. And that's not to say I didn't work with coaches on different engagements, and I loved that, and that was really fun, but those were really short, and um it just wasn't, I didn't get that kind of team feeling. The other thing was I had this gnawing feeling of, I mean, I think my purpose as a coach really is, and I think for many coaches, this is I'm not unique, but I'm looking to make an impact, the biggest impact I can possibly make. And I began to think, I think where I am really interested in is impacting systems rather than just people as individuals or even teams in an organization. I just thought, wow, if I imagine if I was embedded in an organization and understood understood the goals and the priorities and you know, could build programs in service of that, building a coaching culture, really, wouldn't that be really cool? Like imagine the impact. And I just started thinking about that. And I I talked to some other internal coaches and kind of learned, you know, what they did. And I thought, that sounds really cool. That's yeah.

Making The Decision To Try

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, and and one of the things that I notice is even just how you shift when you talk about that, right? There's a and and it's so interesting when we coach people, we see those tells, if you will, of, oh wow, that's really interesting to you. That's really exciting. And it's it's so wonderful that you noticed that within yourself, where you could say, Oh, look how I am actually being pulled into this direction. Because we talk about the business development side, and that might push people out, but it doesn't pull them into the next thing. What you wanted, what you were seeking for yourself, was that idea of that team, that idea of making an impact not only on an individual level, but having that perspective to do it on a systems level and being able to really affect the entire organization as opposed to sort of spot checking, if you will, throughout it. And what what was it that you had to do in order to really make that shift for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I think it was simply to make the decision. And that that's hard to do for me. I mull over things for a very long time, you know, like really, you know, I grapple with those things. But I think once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. And because I had pivoted once in my career, it just felt like, well, I could at least try it. I know that the these internal coaching jobs are hard to find. And so what if I just looked and looked to see what was out there? So it wasn't, I don't think anything necessarily needed to shift. It was these these feelings around wanting to be on a team. Uh, you know, it was it just was like this buzz in my ear. And so I I think it was just making the decision that, yeah, I think this is something that I would like to try and see how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

When you think about creating that transformation and and having that change not only for you, but also for others that you work with. I understand that from an outside, like external entrepreneurial basis and and working with people, and that's my singular focus. You are now back in-house. And I'm curious about how that translates to being in a place where you can create some of that transformational shift within the organization when it's such a systems-driven kind of change that you're creating.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

I feel very lucky in that I get to do both because I'm, I would say 50% of my job is kind of building programs and kind of designing for the system. The other 50% is I get to coach. I get to coach one-on-one, I get to be a group coach, I get to be a team coach. So I feel like I have the best of both worlds because I'm in it from a practitioner point of view, but I'm also helping to kind of design the program that will that I get to then coach in within, right? So I think it's the best of both worlds, really.

Finding A Niche Role And Learning Fast

SPEAKER_00 20:01

The other benefit that that comes to my mind as I hear you describe that is the you get to actually see the real-time effect of the programs that you have established. And it creates this space for you to be thinking about, ooh, I think I might need to tweak that, because that didn't go the way that I thought. And so it's almost this research effort that goes into practical application that then cycles back into an evaluation of how well that program. So you're constantly in that feedback loop where you get to identify the next time we do this program, we might be able to improve it. The other thing that it makes me think about in non-coaching roles is there are so many working leaders within organizations who you talked about the split in your role, where you're doing the thing, but you're also leading the thing and organizing other people in it as well. And as you were describing that, I thought that's every working leader. And even executive level, I know, is often a working leadership kind of role. And it's it's such an amazing thing to think about in terms of where we all have our own little science project that we're working on, where it's I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna see how it lands over here. And I think about leaders who are listening to us talk about this and thinking about where is it that you might be able to create your own pilot of things, of this is how I engage with people, this is how I do this. And that's really all it is is this experiment, because that's all it ever is is one experiment after another. Wow, that landed amazing. Who would have thought that could do that? And the very next moment, you're like, okay, maybe we don't do that again. And it's Learning that we get from that makes the biggest difference. And I love that you get to do the transformational things on both of those. You know, one of the things that I'm sure people are wondering is like, how is it that one goes about looking for because it's relatively a niche role still? Not many organizations have a program manager like you focusing on internal coaching. For a niche role like that, what did it take for you to be able to find the right match for you?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I would like to say that, you know, I had this process and I followed it and ultimately it led to my role. Honestly, I saw it on LinkedIn. I applied for it and they called me.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yes. I I chalk it up to a lot of luck. And I tell people this all the time. I it was it was really lucky and I think they I yeah, I I don't know what else to say. It was, I was very lucky. Um I was very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And it's so funny, too, that you say, you know, I wish I had a better story is essentially what a marriage. And it's like, and yet at the same time, that is such a beautiful story. I I I finally made this decision. I'd been mulling over this. And all of a sudden I'm like, you know what, let's give her a shot. Let's see what's out there. And it's I'm not necessarily getting the impression that it was like you made the decision and a week later posted for the position, and then and then magic happened within three days. My expectation is that it took a little bit of time for that whole process to roll out. How did you fill that time in the in-between, you know, the choice and the luck?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. I filled it with just mainlining every resource I could get my hands on on internal coaching. Because while I was definitely interested in it, I didn't really know what the actual role was, right? I didn't, you know, I talked to other internal coaches, but what I've come to learn is that all internal coaches and programs are different depending on the organization. And so you can talk to one internal coach in an organization who's doing, you know, A, B, and C, and the next one is not because that doesn't work for the organization. So I think while I was, you know, in in the process and sort of getting interviews, I was on ICF's website looking at every webinar on internal coaching. So I could, I could feel like I was confident enough to speak on it. Um and so I did a lot of that. Of course, I wasn't gonna rest my laurels on getting the job that I had applied for. Um I had to keep doing my regular coaching stuff and and working on proposals and things like that. So I yeah, I I was doing both, I think, during that time.

Winding Down Clients Without Burning Bridges

SPEAKER_00 25:07

And and that really resonates because anytime anyone is looking for their next thing, whatever it might be, even people going from the inside out are doing their normal job and then starting to build out the business plan. Well, you know, people who aren't me who just go, oh, hey, I'm going to do this. But most people are a bit more rational and they make these choices and they say, okay, I am going to do what it takes to prepare me to move from this place to another place. The variable is that there might be a little bit more or less planning, depending upon the individual, right? Not everyone's like like me. And at the same time, I think that there's a real powerful essence in that is that for whatever time it takes, it's just okay to stay in that pattern of where you are until that change, the door opens and you're able to walk through in a way. One of the things that I'm curious about is you go from the external entrepreneur coach and you have clients, you are working with people, you're working even with other organizations a bit when you were doing that, and now you've accepted a role and the dream has come true, right? And and you get to move over into this role. I'm curious, how did you unwind the private practice that you had in order to shift over into I am the program manager now?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah. That was, I think it was really tricky for me to be thinking about that uh as I was making the transition, uh, not knowing if I was gonna get the role or not, but thinking in the back of my head, oh gosh, I have these clients of mine that I'm gonna have to wind down my business. Um, luckily, you know, in my role now, they understood that. They understood that I was a private coach and needed to kind of wind those engagements down. And that's exactly what I did. I mean, I, of course, committed to those clients and I was still committed to them. Uh, but I was there weren't gonna be any extensions. There wasn't gonna be any additional marketing and and and things like that. I wasn't taking on any new clients, uh, obviously. Interestingly, I mean, I still officially have my own coaching practice still. Um, in fact, I still have a private client that I see. Um it's only one, because that's about all I have time for these days.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Been busy with the full time gig, yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yes, yes. But I think that speaks to, I, you know, I I am always looking at, okay, who knows what might happen. And I I never want to wind down my own, my own business, right? Like I always want to just have that. Uh, who knows what will what will happen in the future. So I haven't, I it's not like uh my business went away. It's just kind of dormant, uh, except for a client or two that uh I really want to work with and who understands kind of my schedule.

Research And Mindset For Big Transitions

SPEAKER_00 28:20

That really makes me think too about that that flexibility where you have the option to keep that option open. And sometimes through what is imagined or really is a conflict of interest, sometimes it's hard to do the side gig in addition to the main. And I think that's actually become something that is less controversial. I think a lot of people have these side roles that may or may not be relative to the, you know, the work may or may not be the same. And I'm I'm actually a little inspired by the fact that your employer recognized the value of your ongoing relationship. And it also speaks to how important it is for the organization that you would choose to go to, whether it's from the outside in or from this role to another organization, to recognize that that's such a cultural alignment. So whether, you know, whatever the source is of the role that you're in and you're looking for your next thing, how important it is to really understand and appreciate who those people are, not just the values they put up on a wall, not just the words that they have on their website, or the niceties that they they do during an interview process, but who are you really? And that can be such a key part of recognizing whether you're running from something and landing somewhere, or what you did, which is I've made a choice that these are the factors that are important to me. And this new employer actually has those factors that I can find myself wrapped in so that when it's a bad day, because we all have bad days, that you still have that around you that supports you. I think that's a beautiful thing. When you think about this transition that you made and all of the work and the effort that you put into that shift, there's there's an arc of the change that happens. What what advice would you give to other people about what they can prepare for when they're facing an arc of their own?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Good question. Well, I think there's kind of two things that run parallel, right? There's the physical things that you can be doing. And then there's the mental kind of emotional uh mindset, I think. Um, and that's not to say I did both of those things correctly or perfectly, but on the kind of the um action-oriented physical side of things, I did a lot of research. I did a ton of research just so I could understand and feel knowledgeable and know what I was getting myself into. And that included webinars, that included talking to other internal coaches, um, and just learning as much as I could to feel A, like this was something that I actually really wanted to do, and B, feel knowledgeable enough to be able to talk about it if I were to get an interview. The other part of it was just the mindset around this could work out or this could not work out. And I had to be okay with that. You know? Um I think that was something that I learned when I pivoted from, you know, working in an organization to going into coaching. It, I really, it was a very uh stressful time. I put so much pressure on myself uh during that time. And I think this time around, I was just much more, let's just see what happens. And whatever happens is not the end. There's just always going to be another choice and another path. And I had to trust that.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

One of the things that comes to my mind, well, there are two things that come to my mind as you're talking about that, because I think both of those are so incredibly important. One is that we have a false sense of control when we're moving through those other people get a choice in these matters as well. And I that's such an important component. And the other element, I guess, is really related, which is this idea of surrender. That, okay, so because I don't have the control, there's a degree to which I will continue to do the activities, whether it's to your point, the the physical things of I will apply, I will prepare for interviews, I will do all of those things, in addition to the I'm going to get my head right so that I'm not making an assumption that this is going to be an outcome. And then if that's not it, that now I'm devastated and now I'm in this other state of grief when things don't go the direction that I would have wanted them to do. What were some of the things that you learned about yourself as you were moving through that moment?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I think I learned that what's meant for me will happen. And I have to trust that if I didn't get something or didn't something didn't get my way, it wasn't meant for me. I know that's sort of woo-woo. You know, maybe and maybe that's just me trying to, you know, uh make myself feel better. I don't know. But I really, I do actually do believe that. If if something's not a good fit, whether it's on the other side, you know, on the other side, I, you know, that's okay. There will be another opportunity. I think that's I think I've gotten to the point where I trust myself and know my value enough to know that there's something out there for me that will be a good fit, even if this opportunity isn't.

Confidence Reps And Doing It Anyway

SPEAKER_00 34:22

It it makes me really think about some of the other conversations that I've had on the podcast. And and one in particular that stands out is this idea of having a really fixed and narrow target. And that means that there's not a lot of runway for you to be going in a different direction. But when you kind of just state, I want to be an internal coach, it's specific, but it's also broad because it's not, I want to be an internal coach in this city for this company doing this kind of work with this kind of formula and program. Well, that would be specific. That might be hard to get. And as you're talking about this, you're not giving up. That's not what I hear. It's not like, oh, well, you know, it didn't happen. I'll just pivot to plan Z because A through Y didn't work. Instead, it's trusting that I'm directionally accurate and that I can keep on moving in this direction, even if the details continue to clarify over time. Now that you're the program manager and also doing some of the internal coaching as well, how much is it similar to what you had initially imagined versus being a little bit maybe different than what you expected?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

I think it was I think it it honestly is the best version I could have ever dreamt for this kind of role, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

How beautiful is that?

SPEAKER_01 35:59

It's awesome. Honestly. It really, it really is. Um I you know, when I applied for the job, when I read the description, I was like, this is my dream job. Wow, this is my dream job. I have to apply for this. I still feel that way a year and a half later after being hired. Um so I think what I've been surprised about, happily surprised about is how much leeway and creativity they give me to really try things, to pilot things, to just be creative and innovative in my role. They, you know, I just felt really and I will say that's what what I loved about the idea of having my own coaching practice was that ability to be creative and innovative and try different things. And I'm able to do that within an organization, which I absolutely love.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

What's the difference now compared to the way you were before in terms of your coaching and your leadership style within an organization from your pre-coaching leadership and support kind of style?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

I'm much more confident. I'm much more confident. I think I have more experience under my belt. I have coaching skills under my belt. And I really do feel because I'm one of two people in the organization who are who does coaching, I feel like an expert. I do feel like I have something to offer, uh, value. And that's not to say I didn't in my earlier career, but I think I've just grown. I've I've been brave and made a few pivots in my career. And I feel like I'm just more settled into myself. And so leadership doesn't feel like I need to perform it. It's just who I am.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

When you describe that, it just makes me think about so many of the people I know you have coached and I have as well, who are in their head, they're feeling stressed out, they're feeling like I'm not really certain that I should be in this role. Or they're at least questioning, is this what my future should be? Do I really need to be in a role like this? Having traveled from where you were to where you are, what would you say are the most important things that people who are facing those kinds of fears and concerns need to know and understand?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I think it's important to understand what's motivating that fear. Is it really only about themselves and their ability, or is it because it doesn't feel like the right fit for them? Right. And so I think there's different the knowing where that motivation is coming from can really help you understand what path to take. Um and I would also say if it's the former, if it's really around imposter syndrome or confidence, what I've learned over time is that you have to just do the thing in order to get better at the thing. And that's really hard. And it's so hard for coaches to hear. I'm sure you you hear that too, is you have to get the reps in. And that's what's hard about it. And I think that's what's so awesome about coaching, and I'm sure you agree, is watching those watching clients take risks and be courageous and change their behavior because you know over time that's what it takes. It's not only the mindset shift, it's the actual doing something differently that ultimately gets you where you want to go.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

It's I I think it's really funny in in terms of the idea that we wait until we're certain or we're confident, because by then it's often the opportunity has passed, and now we're mad that we missed it. And I love what you're talking about, where this is really about when you see a thing, take the risk, even if it's a small step in. Try something, do something in order to test yourself and see what your limit really is. Because, and I think you would agree with me on this, which is I bet your limit is farther out than what you really think that it is. We have beliefs about what we can tolerate. And then as we go through something, we realize, oh wow, I have a lot more capacity for dealing with things than I actually ever thought that I would. That's so important to recognize because in and often having people look back, like you're reflecting right now, thinking about these experiences, and you're thinking, yeah, I've I've done the reps, I've had these experiences that taught me this is not something I need to fear. Or this is something that went sideways last time. And so I need to prepare differently than the way that I prepared the last time. And whatever happens, you learn from it and and you move forward with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah. I would say the third option is feel the fear and then doing it anyway, which has been my experience.

What To Consider Before Going Solo

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yes. Yes. Take the deep breath, close your eyes, open them, and take that first step. And yeah, and I I am strongly on the record as fake it till you make it is just BS. However, I am a big fan of imagine yourself doing it so that you have that opportunity to have at least a visual of what that would look like, and then go try to mirror that image and get as close to it as you can. And it won't be the same. And knowing that, it goes back to what we were talking about before, which is you can't hold tight to a specific and really detailed measure of something that doesn't usually work out the same way that you had imagined it in the beginning. There are a lot of people who like to imagine a world where they can leave the corporate life and move out and do the entrepreneur thing. And I've also talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who have done sort of the in and out, right? The back and forth a lot. Or they went out and went, ew, not for me. I'm back in now. And I guess I'm curious, having been in both of them, what do you think are the really important things for people to think about before they make the decision to make a change from inside an organization and outside and doing it on your own in some entrepreneurial venture?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah, I think a few things. One is what's your tolerance for risk? Because, you know, like we talked about, when you're on your own, you're on your own. It is, it is you. You are the boss. And so, you know, how how what's your tolerance for that kind of risk and security, that kind of thing? I think that's really important. And don't lie to yourself. And I would say sometimes you need to try it to know what that risk is. Sometimes you just don't know. And so I think it's okay to try it. Um a big believer and hey, try something out. And if you don't like it, do something else.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

So that's keep trying. And it's like a buffet. Keep on tasting different foods. Absolutely. I'm totally on board with that.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yep. Um, another thing is, you know, especially with in my situation. How much do you feel like you need to be a part of something? That affiliation piece, team, all of that, like really understand, especially if you're on in an organization, how much of that is important to you. And so because losing that is hard. Um and you know, I I learned that over time that I that I really did miss that affinity and teamwork uh that I had in an organization. So those are a few of the things that I would consider. And again, I I am all about why not try something new. If you're brave enough to try it, uh you can oh, you know, probably go back into a similar role that you were in. Um but sometimes we need to, like you said, stretch ourselves. We don't know what we don't know and how far we can stretch. And sometimes you need to try it in order to figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Absolutely. One of the things that that makes me think about is when I left corporate and I started putting things together for presentations I was going to do and all of those special things that we do as we're either delivering on a project or preparing to do a proposal and saying, hey, this is the kind of thing that I've done or I do. And I kept on thinking, where are all of those slide decks that I used to be able to tap into with all of these other people? And it's amazing how many things that are in your head, but you're still in a place where you need to create from scratch. And so there's this really foundational work that happens in the beginning. And I think that's one of the things that for people who go from the outside, excuse me, going from the inside out into the entrepreneurial space gets underestimated. And I know for myself, it was grossly underestimated how many times I would just have to sit there and think about what is it that I want this slide to say? What is it that I want my bio to say? Where it used to be other people would be there with me to help me create this. And I think eventually what you learn when you're out on your own is that you go, you call other people and say, right, so I'm putting this together. I need another person to bounce this off from, and you've built your network from that. And you get to choose those people. On the inside, you're able to really identify the people within your organization who kind of get you. And so those are the sounding board people. And like you said, the word affiliation really stands out to me in that, where it's not just there are other people breathing in the same room as me, because it's more than that. Affiliation, when you use that word, tells me that it's yes, they I want them to be in proximity, whether it's electronically or what have you. It's really about, I want those people to be connected to me in a way that it makes me think about what you were saying before about the impact and that connection of I don't want to be lonely. I want to have an impact. I want to be related to all of these people, so that we're commonly moving toward a particular mission. I think that's beautiful. When you think about how you get to stretch yourself going forward now that you're within this organization doing this work you so clearly love, what are the ways that you see yourself stretching and challenging yourself now?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

What I find so exciting about internal coaching is that there's not a lot of research on it. There's not a lot out there about best practices on how to do internal coaching well and setting up programs. So I'm really loving being involved. ICF has a coaching in organizations. It's a it's sort of under the umbrella of ICF, but just for coaches in organizations. And I've really enjoyed networking with people who have similar roles, kind of, you know, discussing best practices, at least anecdotally. But I've really been pushing them to do more studies and do more research and do more benchmarking. And so I was I was helpful in getting them started on a benchmarking uh study for internal coaching programs to understand what do they look like, how many people, what you know. Um so I'm excited to kind of I to to get more involved in the kind of the industry of internal coaching, um, and and really trying to set standards and and so anybody who finds themselves in a you know in a role like mine has resources to go to to help make the case to their to their leadership. So yeah, that's that's kind of where I'm I see myself um growing in that space.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

What I hear in what you're describing is actually pioneering on a relatively established road, right? Like I think about, you know, pioneers through like the development of the United States, right? Like as the states were being added and the whole Oregon Trail and all of those kinds of progressions that were taking place that have a mixed history, let's admit it. However, one of the things that I'm thinking about is that others have done this before you. What they haven't done, and that you're advocating for is this whole idea of studying it and figuring out what is it that actually works versus what we think would work and we just kind of throw things against the wall and hope it will. And there's a way to go about doing that. And you've talked about the ICF, which is the International Coaching Federation, for anyone who's not familiar with that. And they're really grounded in not only, you know, the certifications and the credentials that we go through as coaches, but also ensuring that there's research and knowledge that's there for us to tap into as coaches, whether we're inside or out. And I think that that's really powerful that you are advocating for that so strongly, so that people who come behind you actually have the resources that you were looking for when you were seeking to make this transition in the first place. That's that's really a great thing to contribute.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yeah, you said it perfectly. That's ex that's exactly that's exactly it. It's almost like documenting what's what's happening and doing research on what what works, what actually makes an impact, um, I think is really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Well, and that takes some of the woo-woo that we were joking about before out of it as well. Because when you do the study, I mean, social science isn't exactly at the same kind of severity, if you will. And at the same time, in order to get that science to be a little, let's more call it scientific. Um, you know, because we do it through observation and it's mostly qualitative. It's not as quantitative in terms of how that's done, but it's still useful as a guidepost and directional in terms of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to accomplish, not only within like one-on-one coaching sessions, but like what you're doing from a programmatic program, internal facing, let's get this organization all aligned and flying together in the same direction. It's really powerful stuff. And I guess I'm kind of curious here, Michelle, if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you think is important for us to touch on or any other questions that you might have.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

It's okay.

Closing And Share Request

SPEAKER_01 51:58

You asked really good questions. Yeah. Thank you. I don't I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

So, Michelle, this has been such a great conversation. And as always, I I enjoy talking to you and exploring how you think about these kinds of things. So, really just want to thank you for joining me on the podcast today. And for anyone who wants to learn more about Michelle, we will put her profile into the show notes and you will be able to find her. So thank you, Michelle. I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.