Welcome And Curiosity In Leadership

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Seek first to understand and then to be understood, especially if you're the new one, right? Like this isn't my specialty. I had a lot of notes from my first year that of different ideas or whatever as I sat with different people. And some of them, yes, we came back to. Some of them I went, oh, clearly you didn't understand anything when you wrote that down. And so I think the big thing that ties it all together, and I think probably sums me up is curiosity.

Corporate Publishing And Digital Change

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast, we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. Today's guest is my dear friend Felicia McDonald, a leader who has brought a steady, thoughtful presence across both corporate and small business environments. She is a way of stepping into complexity without rushing to solve it, taking the time to understand what's actually happening before deciding what matters. Felicia leads with intention. She's focused on work that holds up and creates real impact, not quick wins or appearances. That shows up in how she collaborates, navigates change, and supports the people around her. There's a grounded confidence in her approach. She stays with the hard parts long enough to find clarity, and that's what makes her perspective worth hearing. This is a different kind of conversation today, exploring an inflection point in her career that has a meaningful comparison and contrast between large corporate life and small business leadership. Some parts are very different and some less so. That's what I wanted to discuss with Felicia today. Hi, Felicia. Welcome to the mic. Hi, Becky. It's great to be here. So I think where we need to start, of course, is telling people a little bit about some of that background and everything in your career because you've done a lot of different things, right? And I'm curious, you know, how would you describe your corporate experience and your corporate life before, you know, this big change happened for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Well, I've worked for two large corporations, um, straight out of college. So I started at a wait for it, a phone book company. I some of your listeners might not remember what those are, but uh, but we did ads and whatnot. And I was there for almost 10 years. And then I moved to a very large global uh education company, and I started on second shift just to get my foot in the door. Um, but I started in management and then I ended up running the one of the publishing groups uh at the company. So I had around 120 people in multiple locations, and we did the publishing that the group needed. Inclusive of that, we had to go from a tr what I'd call traditional publishing, um, which was paper, to online publishing, which is very much not the same skill set. So um, and I didn't change my staff. We instead learned together and how we would change to that.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So that's a lot of change management and transition of skill sets, thinking, all of those elements that come into play and a pretty large group of people as well. That I mean, you want to be able to do it on an individual level, but then you're also like, but we also have to all change the ship's direction at the same time. And I mean, this was some years ago, too. So switching to a digital format wasn't necessarily intuitive either.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Absolutely. It was very much not. I remember some very late nights teaching myself how to do some stuff, right? Like, can't ask them to do it if you don't know it yourself. Um, and so spending the time working through that, and I mean, right, everybody thought that it was also going to be much less labor intensive, and it actually turned out to be far more labor intensive, which is, you know, often the whole case, which is what it's very interesting with even the AI stuff out there now to kind of see how that starts to play out. Cause I know a lot of people are worried about their jobs. And the last time I went through this anyway, that sure didn't pan out that way. I sure need a lot more people than what I started with.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

It it is interesting how we think that technology is going to just replace jobs and and put us into this path of everything's going to be so much easier. And there are different complexities that we uncover in that process. And I also know that you had kind of a sharp transition out of that particular company as well when you faced a layoff, but it created a a distinct change for you within your career. Talk through that process a little bit.

Layoffs Trigger A Career Pivot

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, absolutely. One uh it was, I think I'd been at that company about 12 years, and at that point I was, you know, running this large publishing group, and they came to me and said, Hey, we need to do layoffs. That would be the first in my career of over 20 years that I'd even been asked about doing them, right? I'd heard of them, I knew what they were, it just hadn't affected me, and I certainly hadn't had to do them. And I ran a pretty tight ship, so I didn't have it wasn't a lot of times they'll say, you know, well, rank your people and you can get rid of the ones that aren't performing. And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. If they weren't performing, we've either helped them get to where they need to be so they're performing, or they're not here anymore. Like that just we didn't just keep people on so that in the inevitability that we have a layoff someday, we have people to use for that. That seems so I did what I was asked to do and went through that layoff. It was horrible and terrible, and I never ever want to do it again. Said that going through that one. I had a really wonderfully supportive boss and wonderful managers. And then I don't even feel like we had settled from that, and they came back around and told us we had to make another list. I went home that night and called my dad. And while that might sound a little bit like, oh, this grown adult was crying to dad. No, he had a company that he had been running for almost 10 years himself, and he and I had talked off and on about what that might be like because it's a successful company. Uh, but we had talked on and off about what it might be like if I came to um run that for him because he, you know, thought at some point he might want to retire. And so I said, Well, when when were we thinking about that? And he's like, Oh, it's waiting for you. And I was like, Are you sure? Because this is what's happening. And I told him about the layoff. And he's like, Well, let me call my partner, but yeah, I think so. And I don't even think we were off the phone for five minutes before he called me back. And he's like, Yeah, whenever you decide. And I was like, Okay, you understand. I'm gonna go in and tell my boss that I'm on this next list, so I'm not gonna have a job. And yeah, so you can't back out, Dad. Right, exactly. Exactly. So I did. I went in the next day and I told my boss that I will help you with this last list or this next list, um, but it will be my last list because I will be the first one on it. And he wasn't very happy with that, but also understood and um, and we communicated that to my staff, right? Which is also his comment was, well, I have to tell your staff because if they think that I got rid of you, they're not going to follow me. And I was like, maybe that sounds right. So I said, you okay that through HR because I need the severance package because I have to sell a house and do some stuff. Um, because it was also a city move for me, right? It was city and state. So I was in Iowa, I moved to Nebraska. And so, yeah, it he we did that, and I stayed around for a pretty long transition. I think that was in March, and I was there till July. And so then I took the time and we got the house on the market and got transitioned, and I came over to the first couple of years, they were actually very relaxing because I just got to do marketing stuff, and I was responsible for myself for the first time in a really long time. I wasn't responsible for anything but myself and learning.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, and that had to be an important part of that transition, actually, because like you said, you were leaving a known environment. I mean, it was changing because it was switching to the digital, it was changing because they started doing layoffs. Uh, that last one definitely not an appealing change. And so you make this decision to move from Iowa to Nebraska, which means uprooting the normalcy of your life to move into this other area. I mean, you were familiar with that space.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You've, you know, seen your parents a little bit. I had visited my parents and other family that lived there.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And now you're leading in this small business environment, kind of taking on some of the responsibilities from your dad. And so it's important to be able to ease into that new role. Even at that point in time, Felicia, I'm curious, what were you noticing about the differences of operating in a pretty large corporate environment compared to a pretty small business kind of environment with your dad?

Small Business Freedom And Pressure

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Oh, yeah, for sure. And just to give you a better idea, right? I think I said about 120 people just in my department at um the corporate job. Here, when I showed up, there were nine of us, my dad and his partner. So yeah, that was quite a bit smaller. Um, some of the first things that I noticed was just that it wasn't nearly as hectic, right? There weren't the different branches and arms, all the different departments that had to figure out how to work together. You could actually just say to someone, this is what we need to do, and we could just change it. Right. It wasn't like all this bureaucratic tape. It was, oh, we want to do something different. Okay. And then it just changed. And I was just, and that was actually a little, they had to really untrain me from some of the corporate stuff. They had to be like, why do we need to do that? And I'm like, I it seems like we do. I don't because I don't know, HR will get after us. I was like, oh, there's not an HR here. I'm free. So it was really an interesting change. One, it was it was much more relaxing for me, especially for those first couple of years where I was just learning. I enjoy learning, so that part wasn't a big deal. I was also very cautious to come in. I mean, nobody was gonna hand me the reins to the company on day one anyway, because they are we're also right, like we all knew I didn't know what I was doing. It wasn't a secret. I'm new, uh, but we were very intentional with that, that I'm gonna learn the business before they like handed stuff over. And so, you know, I did that for about a year and a half, and then they started to transition out. And then, you know, even my dad's partner would come in like a few times a week, uh, but always just for a couple hours in the morning, and we'd, you know, tackle what we needed to, and then he would be gone. And then COVID hit, and so it was a very small company. And while I said I was free of HR a few seconds ago, I also then COVID hit, and I was like, oh, I actually miss HR because now I have to make these decisions and pay attention to all the science and all the news and what all the requirements are. And um, being a small business, there wasn't, I mean, we're a it's a small e-commerce business, so we do a lot of shipping and warehouse. These aren't jobs you can do from home. So we couldn't close down because then the business is no longer existent. I couldn't send people home. I they can't package and ship stuff from their house that um, so it was it was just it was a lot. And at that point, I did still have uh my dad and his partner, you know, I would say assisting in those conversations, but definitely not at the forefront. Like I was definitely the one kind of leading that.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah. So things had actually by that point in time really shifted over toward you knew how the business was operating. You weren't new, you knew how things worked. And so you were the one who was making decisions. And it just strikes me that when I think about leaders coming into these large corporate environments, there's some things that they know because they've been in maybe similar work experiences and things like that. But often, you know, you might see an executive just sort of parachuting into a role, into an organization that has been operating a certain way. And you were talking about how nice it was to be able to kind of absorb these are the kinds of things that I need to know. This is what I need to understand. I know more about who the people are and what the people are doing. And it strikes me that in a lot of these leadership roles in a corporate environment, you really don't have that as an opportunity. There isn't that slow onboarding so that everybody gets familiar. It's no, I need you to make decisions right now. How would you compare and contrast that from some of the moves that you made in large corporate environments?

COVID Decisions And Real Constraints

SPEAKER_00 14:48

As you were saying that, it reminded me at one point I had gotten, I mean, a new boss. That happened semi-regularly. But I and honestly, this was with the last two that I had there. Both of them, well, very different approaches, but especially the second one. They took the time to go sit with all of my staff, even right. Like my staff was very freaked out. He was he was like, Oh, I'm gonna go sit with so-and-so. Is that okay? And I'm like, Yeah. I'm like, you're just like the first VP that has wanted to interact with like staff. And he's like, Well, yeah, whatever. I'm just a person. And I'm like, I get that, and I know that they're gonna be freaked out, so just work with them. And so I tried to even prep the staff from that, right? Like recognizing we're in a different situation now, and so for me, I I can't imagine parachuting into anything and not taking at least some time. It doesn't have to be like a year and a half, two years that I got at the small company, but it does need to take some time. Like you, I would never advise anyone to walk in, clean off the street to a new position, and just decide you're gonna make some changes. Like understand what is happening, understand what other people do, what they contribute, and then how you can help with that, or how you can maybe remove some roadblocks. Understand what the problems are that if if you're there to fix problems, right? Sometimes it's just that it was evacuated and you they need somebody else in. It's not all there isn't always something to fix. And I think it's nice to recognize that.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I that's such an important thing, too, because so often we end up in a situation where we take on a role and you want to have an impact in that role. And sometimes things are actually operating okay. And you don't need this grand sweeping change of some sort to to really help navigate. And that strikes me as such an important thing of that recognition of where is it that I can support things as they continue as they are? Where is it that I can help people maybe incrementally improve because maybe something is changing or whatever? And now there's almost this prevailing thing of, you know, what have you done in the first 90 days? What have you done in the first hundred days? And it becomes this question of, well, maybe that should be the listening tour. That's always been sort of my perspective as well, which is until you know what's happening, how do you know what should change? And at first blush, things might look kind of sloppy and messy, but then you start to understand why they operate that way. And instead of just fixing a symptom, you're able to actually go in and understand the core of what what is the work for what is the workflow solution to this as opposed to just that person doesn't do a good enough job. We need to have them do X, Y, Z instead, right? And in what you when you went into the e-commerce organization, I guess what I heard you saying was, look, I learned some of the fundamentals about how some of these things needed to work so that when I was leading it, I understood what other people were doing and I understood what I needed to continue to do going forward. I mean, you and I have talked a little bit in in other contexts about how many hats you wear as a leader within that organization. And and again, you know, large organization, a lot of times you have your lane, you get to go around a little bit outside of that. Where in your current role, I mean, how different is that in terms of the scope of the things that you're doing versus when you are in corporate?

Onboarding And Listening Before Changing

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Oh, it's hugely different. I mean, it's there's definitely not a lane. There are several and they're not all going the same direction. You know, I mean, there's anywhere from the finance to ordering products to uh keeping things alive on the different sites, um, the marketing piece, advertising, which I guess falls into marketing, and then uh, you know, HR things like raises and 401ks and just all the stuff. I mean, it really honestly, you could almost go through the departments, right? And those those are the hats. Like if you were thinking of bigger corporate. Um, and it's interesting to be able to step back and think, oh, I guess I do have some knowledge now in all these different areas. I know one of the things that I get, I was asked early on. So when I was at the education company, they had a great program where they paid for classes and for education stuff. Isn't that nice? They they stood behind there what they were uh what they were for. Uh and I went through the process of getting my MBA there. And while I don't know that that helped me get the promotion, the last promotion that I got at corporate, it certainly has helped me because it really does give you a wide array of business skills through the MBA. Certainly has helped me with the position that I'm in now. I am not the accountant per se, but I can have a decent conversation with them now and not feel like a total idiot. Um, even if it's not the right lingo, yes. Uh, but also so it it helps to understand the different parts of how it all comes together. And it it all ends up being very unique to the business that it's in as well, right? Like we have contacts in other countries, even though I think at this point there are five of us that work there. So we've had a range, we've been we're five now, that's probably the smallest, and then we've been up to about 10. And I'm sure a lot of people are like, oh, that doesn't sound like very many. But it it's a lot of people in the mix in terms of getting it all organized and figuring out all the different pieces. Um, one of the things that has also been challenging is people very much so in the in a bigger corporation, I understand why people have their lanes. And even in this business, people some of the people like to have their lanes and we're very, very small. So I'm gonna need you to cross train.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, that makes me really think about, you know, there's There's some of that piece of proximity. And I often talk to some of my clients about when you're, and I usually use like a 15 to 50, right? And you're even smaller than that. Uh usually that could be conversation that keeps everyone in the loop about what the organization is doing. Usually it's just like a conversation in the hallway, and now everybody's been updated. Where in corporate, it's easy to just not know that something happened. And so there's a proximity effect in some re respect that you don't have to formalize communication in some regard, where in some ways maybe you do. And I'm curious when you look at the communication and how different it is from one place to another, what are some of the key things that are different for you now?

Many Hats And Lean Communication

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Definitely, I mean, getting people all updated is much easier because yeah, we can have an all-hands meeting over lunch and have some conversations. And for the most part, we're all caught up. Um, however, so that's actually one of the things that they tried to break me of a little bit was I kept like thinking we needed to get all this documentation or get this all formalized. And I've I have really leaned into that it makes us much more lean and um flexible to not necessarily have that. Now, there are some pieces that we do have to have documented so that when we step in to do stuff for other people, like right, somebody's sick or or just wanted to take vacation, somebody could step in and do those pieces. And that's not always the case, right? There are a few pieces, and we're a small enough organization that not everything gets done when somebody's out. That's just the way it is. Um, and that's okay. We can figure out, I mean, I had we've got a couple people, right, that'll answer the phone and whatnot. And I will answer the phone, but I am not our lead technician. I can't figure out how to get into some of our products and the mechanisms inside. And so I answered a question, I think it was last week, at very, very nice gentleman. And luckily he's understood, right? Most people really are. When I say, Hey, we're pretty small. My lead tech is out right now, sick. I would be happy to have her call you as soon as she gets back in, but she's really the only one that can walk you through this. And he was like, Yeah, okay, cool. You know, it's fine. But learning those kinds of things, I mean, admittedly, I learned that a long time ago. How to say, yeah, I don't know, but I'll find out, or let me get that for you, or we'll, you know, we'll figure that out. I think that's probably one of the biggest lessons anybody can learn is to just stop and say, I don't know. You don't have to know everything. Yeah, and the communication, um there were there are definitely things that I do differently, right? I still live by my calendar, not as much as I did at corporate. I mean, it used to have to tell me where to be hour by hour. Oh, I'm done with the meeting. Where should I walk to next? Or what phone call do I need to hop on next? Um, I don't have that, which is really lovely. And I do use the calendar. So I like I have gotten a set up with a shared digital calendar because I don't want to go find a paper thing to see who's out that day. I think we've find it found a nice meld, right? Like we certainly don't need all the conveniences that corporate has by any means. Like we don't need all the memos or the big policy procedure books. Uh, but we also need to find the efficient ways to communicate. And I think we've definitely kind of found a good um cruising uh spot with that.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

When you think about the leadership, you were talking about how you you ran a tight ship when you were at the education company and everything. And when things are a little bit more fluid, I would imagine running a tight ship is a little bit different, right? And I'm curious when you look at leading the team, what are some of the things that did carry through from the corporate life into the current? And what were some of the leadership characteristics about yourself that you needed to flex a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Oh, yeah, I needed to stop being quite so formal and not in not in language necessarily, but like um, so I I think one of them is it's a different line in what you share with people, right? Um, not that I ever really wanted to be secretive at corporate, but there were often times I was told things that I could not share with staff.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Right. They weren't for public consumption kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yes. Well, and that's another piece of it, right? Is it was a public company. We are a very, you know, it's we're private little dinky thing. There aren't consequences if randomly we all know something that other than like there's not public stock consequences with a board and all the rest of it behind it. Um so I think some of those types of things were and and we don't have a lot of them either. I mean, like on that, not what we did on like the corporate level, right? There were, you know, the customers on the corporate level were much larger, visible. This is at e-commerce, it's very individual. I have sold you a thing, you either have a problem or you don't, and we figure that out. But one piece that has really, which is not what you asked me, but as I was thinking through this, one piece that has really followed through is we all stand together, right? I always stood up for my staff, even if we made a mistake, right? We are human and we will make mistakes. That is, I can guarantee that. There aren't many things in life I can guarantee that is one I can. And when I had to go in front of a customer at corporate and say, Yep, we made this mistake. This is how we're gonna fix it. Never did I give that customer that person's name. That is, I mean, I had customers ask, Well, are you gonna, you know, are you gonna fire that person? I'm like, I will deal with the consequences, right? That's for me. If you want to be mad at somebody or you want to hold somebody responsible, that's me. That's my responsibility. That is no different, right? Like if I'm talking to a customer here and I know that maybe we made a mistake on an order that we sent out or whatever. I'm gonna apologize for it. I'm gonna do what I can to make it right, but I'm also not gonna throw somebody under the bus. And I'm certainly not gonna fire somebody for one mistake. That is one thing I've always said. Um, you know, because I have people a lot of times, oh my gosh, I made this mistake, please don't fire me. And I was like, well, if that's the case, I should have been gone a long time ago. Because I make mistakes every day. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

And and it is interesting with that how folks are are really concerned about getting fired when they make a mistake. Is sometimes that's even what makes them tuck them underneath the rug, is please don't find out because then I might get fired. And usually under the rug they get even more toxic. So it becomes a bigger issue. So it's better just to like confess immediately and be like, yeah, really, like I I messed up. And to be able to do that. And I I do believe that some of that comes back to how many leaders aren't going to demonstrate what you just described. Where some leaders won't necessarily take ownership of it. They say that person did it instead of we, because even as you told that story, I heard you say we made a mistake. And it may have been an individual error, but it's we as providing a service, providing a product that had an error that has a consequence for you, the customer. And that's such a leadership perspective to be able to say, you know what? Here's the thing: we're all operating as one. You can see us as individual people, but we are individual people as a collective within this organization. Be that five people or be that 120 people on your previous team, we all still stand together. So when one of us messes up, it's a little bit like everyone messes up, but I will still take the front seat on this, is what I hear you saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

That you know, it's funny that we versus I terminology. Um I have been a we person for a really long time. And I will say that is actually something that's a little different in this position. It does depend on what it is. I find it really difficult to write uh so typically it's an email form, right? About whatever. But it there are things that I actually make the decision on now that is not a we thing. Um, not things that are like impacting, but like when I'm talking to the person I order from, or there there are just certain decisions. Sometimes you do have to say I. And I always have to, I still find myself, right? It's been 10 years that I've been at this e-commerce situation position. See, I don't even like to say that I run the company. I just I'm in this position. We work together. Um, but I still find myself like, oh, this really isn't a we situation at this point. Like, if I'm making the decision about our 401k that year, I it's not.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

This is a me decision, not a we decision. And that makes me wonder too, about when you're making those decisions. You were talking before about like all the red tape and everything like that in a large corporate environment. And the way you describe that. Yes, you do the background research and and really do the learning behind it. And yet, from a decision-making perspective, like I keep on hearing notes of this where it doesn't need to take months to make simple decisions. If they're complex enough to wait months, it's because you're taking the time to do the research instead of anything else. Or the research keeps shifting, like in COVID, where, oh, we've learned something new. So now we're going to incorporate this. And it's an iterative process. But even then, your decisions are they're either something that you can make yourself because it's my decision to make and therefore I will make it, or it sounds like a little bit of we're going to have lunch today, we're going to talk about this thing. I'd love to get your perspective so that a decision can be made, whether it's us or me, but it's it's going to be that sort of functionality. And I would imagine anyone in a corporate role, you know, would really be going, wow, that would be both amazing and terrifying at the same time. You know, I guess one of the things that it makes me think about, Felicia, is if someone was to ask you, you know, hey, I'm in this corporate environment. I'm looking for another role. I need a change, or I just got laid off and I'm looking for another role. If they were looking at a small business work environment, what's the advice that you would give them about, you know, the evaluation that they might make about themselves in terms of are you the right person to be in a small business, or do you really are you kind of a corporate profile?

Accountability Without Blame

SPEAKER_00 34:19

That's an interesting question. Cause I think, like you had said, even when you usually talk about small business, you talk about 15 to 50 or whatever. And I don't, I don't even hit that threshold. So I think one of the things this is also true in corporate, you need a mix of people, right? You need people that want to learn more and I would say climb a ladder, but right, I don't have a ladder at my company. It's literally me and the other people, and we just work together. And yes, if push comes to shove, I'm the manager of it all, but I'm not, I try not to operate in that function, right? Like they're they have been doing this a lot longer than I have, and they often have ideas that I might not have thought of. So we do try to do as much as we can. But if I need to make a decision in a moment, I can do that, right? Like that I can. I also know that if then if I have to change direction, we'll just do that too. Um, but I think that if you, if someone were looking at would I like a small business, I think understanding do you like to wear a couple different hats? Because it is really rare that any one of the five of us on a given day doesn't have to wear at least a couple of hats. Um, I may have more than some on some days, but everybody, right, is balancing a few. Um, and I think that's a really important thing to understand, right? We're you all want to be there to support the business in however you can. And that might not be in doing the thing you're most comfortable with. It might be, oh, I need to figure out how to do this today, or I need to cross-train with this person so that they're gonna be out. I can help out with that. Um I think that's an important thing, at least with as small as we are.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Um though just to tie into that, I think I work with several, I wouldn't say that they're mid-size. I would absolutely say that they're small businesses because to me, if I look at it from uh a people, not revenue, I would say, and from a leadership perspective, I always think about it as people. I don't think about it as revenue because five people can make lots of money. So it's not, it's not about revenue at that level. So I when I think about organizational size, I often do it in headcount, right? Like a number of people. Um what I think is really interesting about that is this idea of wearing multiple hats. Because one of the things that happens when you wear multiple hats is that you don't get to choose. I'm going to wear this hat for 10 minutes and I'm going to wear it. Like all of the control over when those hats are coming and going is really something that you have to be very intentional about in terms of how you shuffle them, how you let them drive the agenda that you have for the day, because you can spend the entire day spinning your wheels on the lesser important things and all of or the hyper urgent things that you then start to lose some of the focus on the longer-term important things if you're constantly juggling the things that pop up immediately in front of you. And that's it, it's also true in a corporate environment, but you have a structure that will design what those priorities are. And in the smaller organizations, my experience with that, both working for them, but also coaching within those organizations, is boy, you have to rely on your employee base and your leaders to be able to set that agenda in such a way that it makes sense, even though you're spinning lots of plates all of the time. Um, because there's no one there that's going to tell you which is the right plate to be spinning right now. You you have to make that decision for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I also think that what happens in a smaller organization is more of you, I try to share even more than, well, more than I even could really incorporate. It wasn't about not wanting to, uh, but is the bigger picture. Is I you need as you're trying to figure out those priorities, we have to be able to look at, well, if I do this, what is that consequence? Down the road a little bit. Yes, we can, you know, people make mistakes, we can shift lanes, but in the long run, it is better if we can kind of hold steady more often than not. And so I think that it does give people or it gives the people the opportunity to have a bigger picture mindset. Um, I do feel like I had a lot of people in the past in many different positions at corporate, they, you know, they didn't see much outside of their department. And so, you know, when I would have the conversation with the customer about, because they'd be like, Well, why on earth did you do this? Well, I understand why the individual did something they did because it made sense in their context, but they had no idea this was how it was going to get used or implemented or whatever. And so um it's I feel well, and it's a smaller scale, right? Because you're not handing it off to so many different people. Um, it's from us to the customer at this point. It's not going through 10 departments or sometimes even 20 to get to a customer.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

That's a that's a powerful point in the sense that in part of my corporate career, there were a lot of acquisitions that we would make. And they would be acquisitions of relatively small organizations where they had a stronger line of sight from what they did on a daily basis to, you know, as it went downstream, what impacts their decisions would have. Then they get acquired. They end up in this behemoth of an organization and they lose that line of sight. And so all of the sudden, the accuracy of their predictions of what made sense, it it they had to have a lot of realignment on that. So that that really resonates. Felicia, we've talked a little bit here about moving from the large organization into this smaller kind of environment, much smaller kind of environment. There's not necessarily anything that says that you aren't able to build what you have into a larger organization that you would be able to be the leader in this kind of corporate environment again. What, if any, kind of inclination would you have to do something like that at this stage?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah, we've actually had a lot of conversations around that. Uh both just me and my dad as the owner, but also me and the people that work there. Um, I have no interest in going to a large corporation. So if we were going to build this to be five, if we had the opportunity to change this to like 500,000, whatever, I um I just say no, thank you. Because there does come a point that, and and then you tip over that point probably by the time you get to 500. But there is kind of a point that as you're starting to ramp up employees to be able to do more things and expand into that growth, that your ROI isn't there. So there's kind of this weird uh situation, and I I can't tell you what number of employees that is at the moment, it would depend on what we have going on, but where where you do, then you have to engage in some other departments that do not exist, like HR, like some very much support departments that do not support the revenue. And so while there are times, or at least a time, in the past that I've really missed having HR or those kinds of uh depart support departments, I don't have any urge to get that big again. Um, what my goal is with this company is to give myself and the people that work for me a good living wage and bring something to people that they need. But not to go, I mean, we get offers on a fairly regular basis. We have a few different trademarks uh for our brands, uh, because they're all private brands, and we get fairly regular offers that people want to buy them so that they can expand them and make them bigger. And I'm like, I mean, maybe that's the exit strategy someday, I guess. But right now, no. We uh, you know, we've got a good thing. And sure, we could grow a little bit more than where we are. Um, we've kind of fluctuated, as I mentioned earlier, but at this point, no, I have zero urge to run a corporation.

Staying Small And Defining Success

SPEAKER_01 43:54

I actually hear two things in that, right? One is what the economics in me. Calls the law of diminishing returns, right? Where you get to a point where now I have to invest enough money in order to do this that I have to actually jump over that threshold so that I can overcome that law of diminishing return. The other thing that sounds actually, from the way that you talk about it, more compelling than that is, but I don't want to do that, right? Like that's not in my heart to do. And if someone else ever wanted to take it to that place, what your focus is on the small number of employees that you have working with you and making sure that they feel like they have an impact with the work and that they have that living wage so that they can also go home and enjoy their life. And that feels like it's the compelling part of the work that you're doing and not necessarily bigger is better. And I think that that is a powerful message within that, because look, some people really want to build up a large organization, have this huge impact in a different way. And that's just not what's in your forecast for yourself. And I think that goes back to what is it that you think about for yourself in terms of what you want your life to be as you're choosing your career path. If you want to be, you know, the entrepreneur who is constantly building and growing and making things bigger, then you have to kind of think about where am I going for that purpose? But if your goal is really stay small, stay impactful for those who are in my sphere, then that's a different model to follow.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Yes, very much so. The as you were talking and talking about the other model sounded very exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

And I just don't have it in me. Yeah, I I well, and part of it is that's the recognition that we have to have about ourselves, isn't it? Is where am I on that spectrum? Where am I willing to invest and where am I not? Because if I sign up for something that requires that kind of investment and I really don't want to do it, then everyone's happy factor goes down without question. So I think that could be really risky. So I'm curious, is there anything that we haven't talked about about that transition in terms of you know, that corporate leadership versus small business leadership that comes to mind as we kind of wrap the conversation for now?

SPEAKER_00 46:34

I think while there are a lot of differences in terms of what my day-to-day for sure looks like and what the day-to-day looks like even with the people that I'm surrounded by, while there's a lot of differences with what the day-to-day looks like, I also find that there's a lot of similarity. And this goes back to I I think you said earlier, we met actually through coaching training. Um, so when I was at corporate, one of the other things that they were nice enough to pay for at through that education program was some coaching training for me. And one of the things I learned there was uh how to inquire and understand through curiosity as opposed to judgment. And so, and this goes back to like even when I first started, right? Understanding what people were doing, talking about like how you would I would come into any position and want to understand what it is. So kind of that seek first to be understood or to seek I almost said that backwards, seek first to understand and then to be understood, especially if you're the new one, right? Like this isn't my specialty. I had a lot of notes from my first year that of different ideas or whatever, as I sat with different people. And some of them, yes, we came back to some of them. I went, Oh, clearly you didn't understand anything when you wrote that down. And so I think the big thing that ties it all together, and I think probably sums me up. It'd be interesting to hear if that's what people that work for me now and then think. But from my perspective, anyway, since you're talking to me, is curiosity is really, and that's how I make decisions. It's why I involve people in, right? Like, what would they think? I like to understand what those other views are. Um, I like to sure I I can make very quick decisions, I try not to when I can, right? Like if I have to, I have to. There's sometimes that's necessary, but I try not to make quick decisions. I'm a pretty fast processor in my brain, and I know that not everybody is. And so, and honestly, some of that anal analytical piece, I can do it, but I will do it after the fact. Um, and so I've learned to slow myself down when I can and to ask for that input uh because it it's just invaluable. And so being curious, I feel like is probably the most important thing in leadership.

Curiosity And Coaching Questions

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah, yeah. No matter where you are, to your point. And and there's a there's a component to that too, where I'm not necessarily one who subscribes to I will set the model for everyone to follow. But this is one of those areas where there's a huge opportunity for a leader to set the standard and to set the model. Because when the leader is demonstrating the willingness to take the time, what they're what they're signaling to everyone is urgency isn't the best way to deal with these questions. It's actually to get curious about what's actually going on. What what causes us to be in this situation? And using what I translated in my head as something that you were talking about before as the critical thinking skills. So it's that curiosity combined with critical thinking so that when you find a solution to something, it's not just a band-aid for a symptom. It's actually digging down into the core of an issue and acknowledging that you understand enough about it that you feel like you're able to make the best choices now. That's a little bit what I'm hearing. And it's also that curiosity, what I have seen when leaders demonstrate that in the right way is that there's an opportunity there for people to share what they know in a in a safe sort of way, whatever safe means in that context, because sometimes people are afraid to say something because they might think that, well, I might be pointing out my boss doesn't know. What you're describing is, no, I'm actually saying I don't know. And I'm asking for you to tell me so that then I can know and and how important that can be as a valuable part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

And one of the things that I learned really early on, I think probably even from childhood, was how to play devil's advocate. I enjoy a good conversation, and I will call it a conversation. I don't ever mean it as a debate. As a leader, that's very intimidating because I have a question for everything that what about, what about? And I have been very lucky to have people around me that will point that out to me and say, Hey, I know you're just searching for information, but sometimes that's intimidating. And so it allows me to be able to come back and okay, yep, I did this is what I meant by that, or ask it in a different way. Again, more of a curiosity than an immediate. I'm I've I don't mean that it's wrong. I mean, yep, tell me more. So I should say that instead.

Closing And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Well, and what's interesting is going back to those coaching skills that we learned when we were going through coach training, is the the open question versus the closed question and being able to say, what do you mean by that? Help me understand what's going on there. Or what is it that is the biggest roadblock for you in this, instead of is this the problem? Which feels a little bit judgy and a little harsh at the same time. And and even that, why were you thinking that? So maybe avoiding why. What was it that caused you to go down that path, right? Or make that choice, can still sound judgy to the defensive, right? And when we've made a mistake, we tend to be a little defensive. It's fair, it's reasonable. And like you said, kind of coming back and saying, and by the way, I say this to my coaching clients all of the time, just so we're clear, I'm playing devil's advocate right now. I am not necessarily on the side of anything that I say right now. I am actually doing this for the sole purpose of getting the thought process moving in a variety of different directions. So I may say something or ask something that is diametrically opposed to what I would actually think would make sense, but that's information and it's a way to look at a situation so that you get out of a pattern of thinking. And as we both know, coaching definitely drives people toward thinking about things in a unique pattern of thinking so that they get out of the ruts that they've been in. It's not necessarily, you know, I'm going to tell you what to do because who am I to tell you what to do? It's more along the lines of, well, let's get you into a different way of thinking and see what pops up for you. And it'll be fun. And everyone's like, yeah, okay, great fun, Becky. It's weird. They don't have the same kind of fun that I do. I guess I just don't see it exactly. So um well, great pleasure talking today. I appreciate you as always. It's always a pleasure to talk with you, and it's it's just great that you were willing to jump on and record with me today. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

If you have interest in connecting and learning more about today's guest, check out the show notes for ways to connect and follow up. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.